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I am reminded of a story of a virtuous Christian Republican woman from Iowa who was stridently anti-abortion. Then, behold: she develops a problem pregnancy! Doctors determine that if she has the baby, she dies and the baby does, too. So she has an abortion. She comes away from the experience at last understanding that things are not always simple, not always black and white, that people do not traipse down to the abortion clinic oh la de da I think I'll have an abortion today casually, but that it actually is a gut wrenching private medical issue that people take quite seriously. What utter irony that the "get the government off our backs" conservatives are precisely the ones who demand that Big Government butt into private medical decisions. Why invite Big Government to meddle in your own medical decisions? Why? Do you doubt for a second that if conservatives wanted Big Government to meddle in mens' private medical issues men would rise up in fury against them?
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Re: The Abortion Issue
The scenario you describe here poses a couple of problems as far as the pro-life/pro-choice debate goes:Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
1) Most pro-life groups do not object to abortions that are carried out due to circumstances where the mother's life is being threatened. For example:
Life Dynamics
Pro-Life PhysiciansIn those extraordinarily rare instances in which a pregnancy poses an immediate and life threatening risk to the mother, she should be allowed to direct her physician to perform any medical procedure that is necessary to save her life. In that effort, however, the physician must always do whatever is possible to save the life of both mother and baby. If as an unintended consequence of saving the mother's life, her unborn child loses its life, that should be viewed as a profoundly regrettable but lawful outcome.
2) If that Iowa woman believes that abortion is permissable only when a pregnancy jeopardizes a mother's life, that still puts her far away from the pro-choice camp.When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim.
You need to come up with another scenario, if you want to present an example of someone changing from a pro-life to a pro-choice position.This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome. -
Re: The Abortion Issue
The point is, she understood from her own experience that getting an abortion is not a casual matter like choosing a sandwich.Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Friends, the issue of abortion has more twists and turns than a Disney roller coaster. Consider:
1. Population pressures - In spite of contraception, accidental pregnancies occur. Currently, the demand for newborns by couples unable to conceive exceeds the supply, but there are other issues complicating the matter, like birthmothers unwilling to let go.
2. Young mothers unwilling to give up careers/education to become full-time mothers.
3. Birthfathers unwilling to take responsibility.
4. Religious issues. (fill in the blanks)
5. Morality: When does 'life' begin, and when does abortion become murder?
6. Projections: How do we know whether we are 'terminating' an Einstein, a Pasteur, a Mozart, a Da Vinci, an Issac Newton, a Richard Speck or a Richard Nixon? Duh, we don't.
Allowing abortion puts God-like powers in our hands, albeit blind. Denying abortion removes personal control of ones' body from women- and only from women!
It also removes choice from the unborn.
Oh, what a tangled web we weave - deception or not!
I'm certainly tangled.
I think women should have choice over what happens to their bodies.
I think every conception should have a chance at life.
Hopefully the time will come when conscious contraception is more reliable, and 'accidents' can be removed to grow in an artificial womb (or a substitute womb).
"Screening" for birth abnormalities may also be an issue, but what if we terminate a Stephen Hawking?
This is not a simple 'Yes-No' issue.Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!~
~KaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehikuSpreading the virus of ALOHA.Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
this is just priceless - a bunch of MEN discussing abortion issues."Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
– Sydney J. HarrisComment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
It has been said that if altar boys could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament. There is a great deal to admire about the Catholic Church but one that isn't is the hypocrisy of the priesthood sexually abusing boys or girls, the response to the problem being only to cover it up or hide it, and then having he gall to wade into politics to force official Church doctrine on the whole society, Catholic and non Catholic alike, with the force of law...AND still cash in on that tax exemption for non political institutions.
There was recently an episode in the Wyoming state legislature (one of most Republican in the US) where some religious conservatives attempted to pass some anti Choice law, and Wyoming REPUBLICANS who actually do believe in the sanctity of individual rights, the right of people to actually control their own lives without Big Government meddling and control, rallied strongly to defeat the measure. Their statements in favor of Choice make good reading, you can find it on Google if you are interested.
I am not qualified to control any human's body but my own, I don't have any moral right to try to force the government to control anybody else's body, it isn't any of my business. Its nobody else's business either. If you accept Big Government's right to control womens bodies on behalf of churches they do not belong to you must accept Big Government's right to control your body, too, for the political convenience of total strangers. Shut the churches up, tax them, its all superstitious nonsense anyway.Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
So...we're waiting for commentary and contribution from the intelligent women who populate this forum, more than a single snap.Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
And don't ever assume that abortion has no effect on men.Comment
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Peace, Love, and Local Grindz
People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. DowComment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
never said it didn't have an effect on men. But lets face it - one is either Pro-choice of not. Theres not much middle ground on this issue.Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
Most "intelligent" women are just tired of having the discussion. and we have been fighting this battle for way too many years. Men discussing abortion issues makes about as much sense as dogs chasing cars. or the older comparison of a fish riding a bicycle.
MY body = MY choice."Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
– Sydney J. HarrisComment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Freedom isn't free. When time comes that legislation decides for you what your freedoms are, or aren't, it might be nice to have a lot of men around who have discussed the abortion issue, and understand your side.Originally posted by anapuni808 View Post
George W. Bush and his "Patriot Act" took away some of our freedoms - make sure some old farts in the Supreme Court don't take away more. There is strength in numbers.Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!~ ~KaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehikuSpreading the virus of ALOHA.Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Until men come equipped with a womb - they can't possibly understand "our side".Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post"Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
– Sydney J. HarrisComment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
To stay with the black+white perspective, does the father of the fetus have absolutely NO say in the matter whatsoever?Originally posted by anapuni808 View PostComment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Women could have controled Earth long ago, but they keep having babies, bad choice. Lucky me.Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Yes. The father of the fetus does not get to make the choice to carry a baby. He does have a say in the matter, but ultimately, its not the man's decision to make.Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I agree with Ana in that most of us intelligent women have already considered our own personal choices, and after 50+ years of these debates about abortion, one thing remains true: My Body=My Choice, everyone and their grammy has some idea of how they personally feel about it. There's the deal - its personal - and this subject simply gets tiring to discuss after so long!
Ron, I have no idea what your statement is about.
My personal opinion - if you dont want/cant care for/facing having an abnormal baby/cant afford/arent ready/(insert reason here), you have the right to have it sucked!~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~Comment
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Re: The Abortion Issue
Women are the boss of their body and should call the shots on how this world is, they control the game, yet are always the victim and the world is less for it.
Lucky me? I'm a happy bastard, delighted to be at the party, and thanx to mom for not listening to those who wanted her to kill me, I am.Comment
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