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  • Snowden/NSA

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-world-sn...032606031.html
    "We have proper avenues for whistleblowers to make their case, he should just turn himself in and take the consequences if he's really a concerned patriot"... blah blah. Right, all our Dems and cons want this guy dead, yet they say he shouldn't have gone to China, Russia, etc. to stay alive and get the word out. It's about salvaging freedom of the press and our media goober heads are all against him.
    https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

  • #2
    Re: Snowden/NSA

    These events are hardly surprising.

    Bamford wrote a good book on the topic.

    Within treaty law the rest areas are a sort of neutral zone.

    The capsule hotels there are actually pretty comfortable.


    After days of shuttling about on private jets, such a refuge seems be nice.

    Havana has a nice climate and after all,

    The blowback might be too much .




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    • #3
      Re: Snowden/NSA

      Funny, I am not coming down on Snowden's side on this. We talked about it before: it is a cruel world, there are bad people with evil intents, as 9 11 and other events show. As important as the right to privacy is, all rights have their limits. When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand. Like everything else there needs to be balance. Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security. So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors. I can't help but wonder if the cost of such necessary and realistic supervision has been a victim of our dysfunctional congress's insistence on tax cuts for billionaires. Its so sad but you actually do need to spend money, thats what it exists for, and supervising such contractors seems like just such a necessary expenditure. In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.

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      • #4
        Re: Snowden/NSA

        Ou sont les Snowdens d'antan?
        Greg

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        • #5
          Re: Snowden/NSA

          Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
          When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand.

          Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security.

          So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors.

          In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.
          It can't be trusted either.
          Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics. Virtually everybody in our Gmt. and media is rabid over getting this guy. Sickening.

          He hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years. That's why they're mad as hell and want his head. No National security wasn harmed in the release of this info.

          How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?

          I'd say we need millions more like him.
          As he's said, he's just a regular guy who saw things that were wrong and needed to be known, and he had the ability to do it even at high costs to him.


          I salute his ultimate patriotism and guts.
          Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 24, 2013, 03:08 PM.
          https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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          • #6
            Re: Snowden/NSA

            Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
            Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics.
            But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.
            He [Snowden] hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years.
            So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it.
            How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?
            But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.

            Does anything strike you as peculiar about these arguments you're making?
            Greg

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            • #7
              Re: Snowden/NSA

              Excellent perspectives from all posters.

              If the prism device had been in place in the 1700s

              the American Revolution would have been nipped in the bud.

              They would have grabbed Paul Revere.

              ------
              Chris
              Last edited by lensperson; June 24, 2013, 10:21 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Snowden/NSA

                That's a big playing field to play hide & seek.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Snowden/NSA

                  I am kind of frustrated with the hypocrisy of my reaction. I totally supported Daniel Ellsberg blowing the whistle on the goofiness of the Vietnam War. In that case secrecy was being used to hide evil, in this case maybe not. The point that everybody who had an interest in knowing the gvt was spying already knew is probably correct. Thats why bin Laden went to such lengths to avoid leaving an electronic trail. Yet if the spying doesn't do any good why does the gvt claim it does, and why does the gvt even do it? Maybe just keeping the pressure on makes evil plots that much more difficult to pull off.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Snowden/NSA

                    Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                    The point that everybody who had an interest in knowing the gvt was spying already knew is probably correct.
                    Well, we didn't know, right? So apparently you're saying that we didn't have any legitimate interest in knowing that our government was spying on us.
                    Yet if the spying doesn't do any good why does the gvt claim it does, and why does the gvt even do it?
                    Obviously, the government claims the spying has been pretty darn wonderful in order to justify its actions. What is it going to say? That the violation of our rights was pointless? Why did Cheney say he had pursued his previous policy of torture? Because he liked to hear the screams?

                    Why does the government spy on us? There must be a good reason, because, as we know from the past, the government always has good reasons for everything it does. NOT.
                    Last edited by GregLee; June 25, 2013, 06:56 AM.
                    Greg

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                    • #11
                      Re: Snowden/NSA

                      The gvt claims its spying helped bust up more 9 11 type plots. The claim can't be dismissed out of hand, they may be right and from our vantage point we just can't tell. I am a lot more likely to accept what the Obama administration says because it never established a track record of lying like Bush did, Bush was reliably unreliable, you could depend on him to lie. Worst I can say for Obama is a few errors but not deliberate mass lying. Bin Laden went to great lengths to not leave an electronic trail, that says something. He could only be found with on the ground informants

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                      • #12
                        Re: Snowden/NSA

                        Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                        But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.

                        So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it. But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.
                        You might want to re-read my post, Greg, I'm not promoting torture. And while I might be glad US lives were saved in most any way I'm not about to sanction torture or civil rights violations.

                        But... the bad guys HAVE known for years, we are just too busy with American Idol to bother knowing our best interests.
                        https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                        • #13
                          Re: Snowden/NSA

                          Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                          You might want to re-read my post, Greg, I'm not promoting torture.
                          I read your post carefully. You never said anything about torture being wrong. You argued only that torture was ineffective. I guess you don't realize that this does promote torture for those that happen to disagree with you on factual grounds and think it works, or who think that they have discovered more effective methods of torture than those previously used.
                          Greg

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                          • #14
                            Re: Snowden/NSA

                            To be clear...
                            Torture is wrong and fails to get credibly consistant value.
                            https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                            • #15
                              Re: Snowden/NSA

                              Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

                              It's the Golden Rule.

                              What goes around comes around.

                              ---------

                              " I say we had better look our nation searchingly in the face,

                              like a physician diagnosing some deep disease "

                              Walt Whitman

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