The Iraq War - Chapter 4

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Denial is the first and most predictable step. You might want to go back and check your posts. You are unhappy with the state of Hawaii. You are unhappy with how it's current citizens go about their daily lives. You are unhappy with the war (duh). You are pretty vocal about too, I may add. Face it, you are just plain unhappy. Life is passing you by and you can't get a ticket to ride. It must really suck.

You don't get a number from me until I get a number from you. I asked first, remember?

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but your remarks can't touch me"

Believe it or not, I'm not unhappy. I want the best for Hawai'i. I think the people in Hawai'i deserve the best. I don't think they are getting the best. Yes I'm unhappy with the war because it is a war built on lies. I am unhappy about the war because of so many lives (American and Iraqi) that are being lost. I'm unhappy that Hawai'i has almost the worst business climate in the entire country (Washington State isn't that far behind). I wish more planning would occur to ensure that the people who live in the 'aina have enough so they don't have to work two jobs apiece just to stay afloat. I see the infrastructure crumbling on Maui as more and more people move there. I'd rather be, as you put it, "unhappy" that I can see that things need to be changed than to sit back, wring my hands in anguish and say, "Oh poor me, there's nothing I can do about it" or "gee that sucks but I don't care".

P.S. You're not going to give me a number because even if you knew a number you couldn't tell me "in the interest of national security." And you're right, I can only go by what the White House wants the press to divulge. Makes it rather convenient, yes?

All I care about is getting our troops home as soon as possible. It's what the majority of people in this country want and what the Iraqi people both want and desperately need.

[nachodaddy]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but your remarks can't touch me"

Believe it or not, I'm not unhappy. I want the best for Hawai'i. I think the people in Hawai'i deserve the best. I don't think they are getting the best. Yes I'm unhappy with the war because it is a war built on lies. I am unhappy about the war because of so many lives (American and Iraqi) that are being lost. I'm unhappy that Hawai'i has almost the worst business climate in the entire country (Washington State isn't that far behind). I wish more planning would occur to ensure that the people who live in the 'aina have enough so they don't have to work two jobs apiece just to stay afloat. I see the infrastructure crumbling on Maui as more and more people move there. I'd rather be, as you put it, "unhappy" that I can see that things need to be changed than to sit back, wring my hands in anguish and say, "Oh poor me, there's nothing I can do about it" or "gee that sucks but I don't care".

P.S. You're not going to give me a number because even if you knew a number you couldn't tell me "in the interest of national security." And you're right, I can only go by what the White House wants the press to divulge. Makes it rather convenient, yes?

All I care about is getting our troops home as soon as possible. It's what the majority of people in this country want and what the Iraqi people both want and desperately need.

Perhaps you don't understand the question so I will rephrase it. How many WMDs need to be found before you acknowledge that Iraq violated UN Security Council Reolutions? That should take care of any and all WMDs found in the geography known as Iraq, regardless of age, efficacy, storage, potential, lack of potential, and whether Hans Blix found them or not.

You care about the troops? You seemed to be obsessed about this Hadji girl. How does that even come close to caring? I know dittys that will curl your toes. You also will post every "friendly fire" and "collateral damage" allegation and vilify all that were involved. You have never held a weapon (thank God). You have never had to make a split second decision that affected not only your life but the life of others. Support the troops, right, go buy a US flag and stick it on your car. Your way is not working very well.

Keep it up, you might get past this denial thingy and on the road to recovery. If wishes were fishes..........

BTW, Washington is a great place to do business. I'll take Bill Gates' advice over yours any day. I'm not complaining.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Actually, if the UN found one live WMD that would be cause to impose sanctions, not fabricate reasons to invade a country. Problem is, they didn't find anything after 2003 (mainly because people were already starting to shoot at each other and it was hazardous for the UN inspectors to be there).
Yes, I have carried a rifle and shot one (in high school).
I can support the troops but protest against the war because I have a Constitution that says I have that right. Washington is NOT a great place to do business. Boeing left for Chicago, Squishy has its fingers in many many countries. They are not making their fortunes only by selling software to people in Washington. Bill Gates is retiring to become a philathropist (meaning instead of spending his fortune on fast cars and faster women, he's pouring billions into international health care...AIDS is one of his pet causes, as is childhood education). And Warren Buffett is entrusting $37 billion of his fortune (85%) to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. You can't be a Microsoft millionaire anymore (they took away the stock options). As in Hawai'i, small business has very few of the incentives that larger companies have; therefore, being a small business person in both Washington State and Hawai'i is challenging.

I am not obsessed by "Hadji Girl". I am repulsed that this is what war is doing to people who have to be taught to hate and kill. I am not vilifying the enlisted people who are being court martialed for killing innocent Iraqis, but I think there's a problem with the chain of command if they can't instill a sense not only of patriotism in the troops they lead, but the discipline to know that if you make a mistake you don't try to cover it up and pretend it was somebody else's fault. Being able to convey in no uncertain terms the mission for the troops in Iraq would help, too. Apparently 42% of the people now putting their lives on the line in Iraq think the mission is "fuzzy".


Miulang

[nachodaddy]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Actually, if the UN found one live WMD that would be cause to impose sanctions, not fabricate reasons to invade a country. Problem is, they didn't find anything after 2003 (mainly because people were already starting to shoot at each other and it was hazardous for the UN inspectors to be there).
Yes, I have carried a rifle and shot one (in high school).
I can support the troops but protest against the war because I have a Constitution that says I have that right. Washington is NOT a great place to do business. Boeing left for Chicago, Squishy has its fingers in many many countries. They are not making their fortunes only by selling software to people in Washington. Bill Gates is retiring to become a philathropist (meaning instead of spending his fortune on fast cars and faster women, he's pouring billions into international health care...AIDS is one of his pet causes, as is childhood education). And Warren Buffett is entrusting $37 billion of his fortune (85%) to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. You can't be a Microsoft millionaire anymore (they took away the stock options). As in Hawai'i, small business has very few of the incentives that larger companies have; therefore, being a small business person in both Washington State and Hawai'i is challenging.

I am not obsessed by "Hadji Girl". I am repulsed that this is what war is doing to people who have to be taught to hate and kill. I am not vilifying the enlisted people who are being court martialed for killing innocent Iraqis, but I think there's a problem with the chain of command if they can't instill a sense not only of patriotism in the troops they lead, but the discipline to know that if you make a mistake you don't try to cover it up and pretend it was somebody else's fault. Being able to convey in no uncertain terms the mission for the troops in Iraq would help, too. Apparently 42% of the people now putting their lives on the line in Iraq think the mission is "fuzzy".


Miulang

Again, myopia. You can rationalize anything if you don't open your eyes. You can't even debate correctly. Your positions are weak. You bring nothing to the table except some else's regurgitation. You vacillate your position whenever pushed or try to reverse google your way out of it. Not even breaking a sweat here.

You don't own a business but yet you give business advice. Pretty par for the course. You gonna tell me next how to rebuild my 350? Geez Louise, you have an opinion on everything. Light as a popcorn fart they are.

Enough..... this has been mildly entertaining but alas I got a wonderful family and home waiting for me. Enjoy your day off justifying your existance.

[timkona]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200...050wmv&ak=null

check out this link for an Arabic women ranting about the evil nature of the Koran and Islam in general....she is spot-on correct in that she agrees with what I have recently posted on this thread.

[waioli kai]

treason, war crimes and other US presidential freedoms and luxuries

--'Mr. Hussein was quite knowledgeable concerning the regional cultures and effectively managed Iraq with minority Sunni support, some 20% of the total population.'--

"US's" is a singular possessive form of US which is never intended, by this writer at least, to be an abbreviated way to represent "The United States". US in the United States are the "us" factor of US in such words /concepts as capitalUSts, corporatUSts, militarUSts, zionUSts, corruptionUSts, righteoUS, fascUSts, terrorUSts, justUS, and so on. As such, US is United States' equivalent to Mr. Hussein's Iraqi Sunni.

Mr. Hussein's rule of Iraq is a fair analogy of US's rule of the United States. Mr. Hussein's "Sunni support, some 20% of the total population" is not dissimilar to the United States' core fascUSts who have been, are now, represented numerically in that steady ~20% of the U.S. public opinion in favor of Dick Cheney-style cabalism, in favor of the world such cabalUSism has delivered to humanity for the past half century. Yet, what about that ~ 80% that is not US of the U.S., the non-Sunni so-to-speak? "Well, they're wrong", says Mr.Cheney to Mr.King in a recent cnn interview (the context of, along with, those three words themselves still missing from the five-day old "rush transcript" of the 22June2006 aired interview) cnn's John King wanted VP Dick Cheney's opinion on the fact that ~60% of U.S. citizens do not believe the CheneyBush regime has a viable U.S. plan for post-U.S. invasion Iraq.

Here is some more classic Dick Cheney, America's Mr. Hussein, from the same interview:

"...the other thing that's working here, John -- I'm not running for anything. My career will end, politically, with this administration. I have the freedom and the luxury -- as does the president -- of doing what we think is right for the country. And the advice I give and the positions I take on issues are based upon that fundamental proposition: we're doing what we're doing in Iraq,,,and so forth because we think these are essential policies for the nation to follow. We're not trying to improve our standing in the polls, we're not out there trying to win votes for ourselves. Neither one of us will ever be a candidate again. We're doing what we think is right."

There is no doubt that Cheney is correct when intending to say " I have the freedom and the luxury of doing what I think is right for the country." Cheney's freedom to rule as such derives from the luxury afforded him by an obsequious U.S. Congress and selectively blind-eyed United States' justUS. The Constitution of the United States affords neither Bush nor Cheney such freedom, luxury, secrecy and unaccountability. "Based upon that fundamental proposition" that he does have such freedom and luxury, Mr. Cheney says "I take my positions on issues". However, Mr. Cheney does much more than just take positions on issues:

" I have the freedom and the luxury of doing what I think is right for the country."

When Mr. Cheney says, "My career will end, politically, with this administration." , he is of course lying. He is merely referring to his selected and appointed on-federal-payroll overt career. Hopefully, if there is any justice in the world which can prosecute United States' war criminals, Mr. Cheney's political career will accompany him to the end of his days.

Mr.Cheney is a good example of why war criminals of his stature should be preserved, not executed. In death they can no longer belie their deceptions, they can no longer reveal the truth which no trial is ever likely to fully reveal.

[waioli kai]

war horrors, reconciliation, timetables and hypocrUSy

(Some)''Insurgents offer to end attacks for ’08 U.S. exit

' Militants set conditions as prime minister offers reconciliation talks

' BAGHDAD, Iraq - Eleven Sunni insurgent groups have offered an immediate halt to all attacks — including those on American troops — if the United States agrees to withdraw foreign forces from Iraq in two years, insurgent and government officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday....''

When a U.S. American looks at what recent Balkan's societies, many African societies, and of course Iraqi societies have undergone in terms of sheer, unadulterated by "good intentions" of "the West", horrors. U.S. Americans almost to a person, have never even imagined such horrors, as if one's imagination could approach the reality of others actually living through such horrors! Then, such others (person/victim/soldier/relative/village/community/nation) are asked by the United States, (Israel?), NATO, EU, UN to not only not seek revenge, but to resume a normal, peaceful and compassionate existence.

Many U.S. marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen, and intelligence agents --who themselves, their peers and comrades have donated limbs, senses, health, futures and lives to fuel the CheneyBush crusade for corporatUSt states of America, USrael/Greater Israel-- want the U.S. Military to remain in Iraq for the admitted purpose of redeeming, through further militarUSt actions, the value of their own personal loss due to US War:Iraq , redeeming (futilely attempting to redeem, at any rate) their nation's peoples' irrevocable losses through ever more militarUSt actions.

[Miulang]

"Why We Fight"

"Why We Fight" is a BBC special that traces the birth and evolution of the United States "military industrial complex" (a phrase first coined by Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower). It's about 90 minutes long and talks about how and why we have been engaged in conflict around the world since the end of WWII. The premise of the documentary is that the US goes to war to support capitalism and big business, not for any reasons of patriotism, freedom or democracy.

A couple of things in this documentary really caught my attention: one was footage showing the F-17 bombers (there were 2 of them, because there was a belief that one might not return) dropping their 4 bunker busters on Baghdad and then footage which showed the bombs hitting near but not on the target they were meant for (Saddam or his sons). It also showed the "collateral damage" of innocent Iraqis who were hurt by the blast. The other, even more attention-getting part was a film clip showing Pres. Bush addressing the Congress and admitting that there was no evidence to link the 9/11 bombings with Saddam Hussein.

I think people forget that at one point we were helping Saddam in his war against Iran, in the same way that we helped topple a freely elected Iranian government in favor of the puppet Shah of Iran. The reason why we were helping Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war was because the Ayatollah had taken power in Iran and we didn't like the fact that we couldn't control him.

The thing I appreciate about this particular documentary is that it wasn't an American production, so even though it might be construed as being against the military, it did provide an opportunity for people like Bill Kristol to give their viewpoint.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Remember this picture of the war-weary soldier that became emblematic of our occupation of Iraq?

That soldier's name is James Blake Miller, and here is his story. Last week, only 3 weeks after a lavish renewal of vows with his wife, Jessica (paid for by Americans who were touched by his story that he and his wife had been too poor to afford a proper wedding), he sadly announced that they were divorcing as a result of his PTSD.

So many of our returning soldiers are facing the same kinds of readjustment trauma as this Iraqi "Marlboro Man" (estimates are that up to 20-30% of returning vets need some kind of mental health treatment), but the DoD and Congress have decided to cut funding to VA hospitals. I was hoping that another generation of war veterans wouldn't have to struggle with PTSD in the way our Vietnam vets did, but sadly, it appears that our government doesn't believe that these men and women, who served their country to the best of their ability, need to be given the kind of treatment they need in order to return to the lives they left behind. This is not only a tragedy for the vets and their families, but a shame for us as Americans as well.

Miulang

[MadAzza]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Remember this picture of the war-weary soldier that became emblematic of our occupation of Iraq?

That soldier's name is James Blake Miller, and here is his story. Last week, only 3 weeks after a lavish renewal of vows with his wife, Jessica (paid for by Americans who were touched by his story that he and his wife had been too poor to afford a proper wedding), he sadly announced that they were divorcing as a result of his PTSD.

They forgot the part about "in sickness and in health" after only three weeks? Maybe they should have tattooed it on each other's foreheads.

Sad story. I once read (I wil try to find it) results of a study that found that World War II veterans had the same rate of PTSD as Vietnam War and Gulf War (the first one) veterans. The problem seemed to be combat itself, not "why we're there" or other factors. I'll see if I can find it.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

They forgot the part about "in sickness and in health" after only three weeks? Maybe they should have tattooed it on each other's foreheads. Or maybe they just wanted the party.

The implication I was getting from reading about the severity of his PTSD was, the death part of "til death do us part" in the traditional wedding vows might have been fulfilled if he hadn't decided to get a divorce. Imagine lying next to someone who dreamed of pulling the trigger of a rifle at night...or who put his hands around your neck while he was asleep because he was reliving something that happened somewhere far away, or who blacked out and beat someone severely for no reason at all except to chase the demons in his mind...studies have been done on the rates of alcoholism and suicide of Vietnam vets...maybe somebody should do one on the number of prisoners who were incarcerated for violent acts and who were also war veterans. All members of the armed forces are trained to kill and none ever forget.

Miulang

[MadAzza]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

The implication I was getting from reading about the severity of his PTSD was, the death part of "til death do us part" in the traditional wedding vows might have been fulfilled if he hadn't decided to get a divorce.

I understand that. Veterans aren't getting the psychiatric/ therapeutic care they need, for a variety of reasons. However, I do question why they would renew their vows and then throw them away three weeks later. They knew when they were renewing their vows that they had serious problems.

Vows are serious s*** -- ask Lt. Watada. When you get married, you are making a vow before God and your family. Dumping them three weeks later, for any reason, makes a mockery of the concept of taking a vow. In my opinion, they should have waited and worked on it longer, even if it meant living separately. "In sickness and in health."

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

I understand that. Veterans aren't getting the psychiatric/ therapeutic care they need, for a variety of reasons. However, I do question why they would renew their vows and then throw them away three weeks later. They knew when they were renewing their vows that they had serious problems.

Vows are serious s*** -- ask Lt. Watada. When you get married, you are making a vow before God and your family. Dumping them three weeks later, for any reason, makes a mockery of the concept of taking a vow. In my opinion, they should have waited and worked on it longer, even if it meant living separately. "In sickness and in health."

I think maybe they were kinda coerced into getting married again. They were ALREADY married for a year, just never had that formal wedding (sounds like they might have gotten married the first time right before he shipped out to Iraq). That formal wedding happened because one patriotic American woman heard about it and started a fundraising campaign. Of course if they had known the kinds of problems he would face on his return, if they had been smarter, they would have just told the lady, "thanks but no thanks" but these were small town, decent folk who never asked for publicity in the first place.

Miulang

[MadAzza]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

I think maybe they were kinda coerced into getting married again. They were ALREADY married for a year, just never had that formal wedding (sounds like they might have gotten married the first time right before he shipped out to Iraq). That formal wedding happened because one patriotic American woman heard about it and started a fundraising campaign. Of course if they had known the kinds of problems he would face on his return, if they had been smarter, they would have just told the lady, "thanks but no thanks" but these were small town, decent folk who never asked for publicity in the first pace.

Miulang

Yeah, they probably felt pressured into it. I don't mean to be too down on them -- I was just sort of musing aloud, like I often do (and which usually gets me in trouble!).

It is a tragedy that this is happening all over the country, to God knows how many people. All those families torn apart ... They deserve so much better.

[TuNnL]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200...050wmv&ak=null

check out this link for an Arabic women ranting about the evil nature of the Koran and Islam in general....she is spot-on correct in that she agrees with what I have recently posted on this thread.

I’m glad we have timkona to provide an illustration of what the war is really about for the people in this region. Quite frankly, I think it’s shameful that the Constitution (freedom of religion, anyone?) means nothing to a cowboy named George Dubya Bush. It’s interesting conservatives hate feminists, but if their issues can help accomplish the goal (exterminating Islam from the planet), for God (as in Jesus Christ) sake’s blab it from from the highest mountain. The sad part is Dubya and Co. aren’t even doing it for God. They’re doing it because Islamic Fundamentalism stands in the way of oil profits.