Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

[Sindahrella808]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

So it was bad luck that Indigenous peoples did not have immunity to diseases that were exposed to them by the 'discovers'. Lke 100's of Native American tribes have perished was bad luck

~Lika:bear:

What I mean is, I don't think that the "discoverers" intentionally spread disease to kill off the population. I think unfortunately, in those days, scientifically, they had no idea what thier arrival would mean for a population isolated with no natural immunities, So yes, it was bad luck they happened upon the islands and bad luck that the disease took over so quickly.

[sinjin]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Do you believe those diseases were introduced intentionally as they sometimes were to Native American tribes?

YES

~Lika

By what method do you believe this was accomplished?

[GypsyLika]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

By what method do you believe this was accomplished?

Several different tribes have elders who have past down their oral history given to them by their grandparents. Its not taught in schools, alot is not even written. Stories about blankets that should have been burned because they were infested with one disease or another given out to other tribal members thereby infecting them and hysterectories done on women without their knowledge, their are many stories. Hearing a Native Grandma or Grandpa tell some of their stories, it makes you wonder how the people survived....

~Lika

[Miulang]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

By what method do you believe this was accomplished?

At some point in their history, I wouldn't doubt that the NDNs on reservations became "guinea pigs" for health research. Hell, they are literally a captive audience, and in the past had to rely on the gubmint for their healthcare and education.

In the deep South, poor black men were infected with syphilis (the "Tuskegee Experiment") so the effects of late-stage syphilis could be studied by the Feds (the study lasted 40 years and ended in 1972). These men were deliberately infected with the disease and were not offered any treatment. It is one of the most deplorable things the American government has ever done to a segment of its own citizens. I bet the Native Americans have this kind of skeleton in the closet too, but the truth about it has not yet seen the light of day. Wasn't it bad enough that the white man introduced alcohol onto the reservations so now the rates of alcoholism in the Native American population are probably the highest of all races?

Miulang

[tutusue]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Oh boy. Your very first post here and you're telling us we should "learn something" from the mainland?! You must not be aware of how very much that offends us in our Hawai`i nei.
Here's an easy way for you to learn: go say that to some of the folks in, say, Nanakuli or Waianae or elsewhere on the leeward coast.

Please consider treading a little more lightly here, k?

Oooooh...I'm feeling very protective of the area that's adopted me with open arms!!! The Waianae Coast...Nanakuli to Makaha...is FULL of aloha. That's one of the main reasons I live there. Now, that said...it's also the 'land of instant karma'. One gets back what one puts out with nary a second in between! There are indeed people who should not visit the Waianae Coast. They might see their reflections in the mirror and not recognize themselves, causing the mirror to break...so to speak!

[sinjin]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Several different tribes have elders who have past down their oral history given to them by their grandparents. Its not taught in schools, alot is not even written. Stories about blankets that should have been burned because they were infested with one disease or another given out to other tribal members thereby infecting them and hysterectories done on women without their knowledge, their are many stories. Hearing a Native Grandma or Grandpa tell some of their stories, it makes you wonder how the people survived....

~Lika

Are we speaking of Hawaiians now?

[sinjin]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

At some point in their history, I wouldn't doubt that the NDNs on reservations became "guinea pigs" for health research. Hell, they are literally a captive audience, and in the past had to rely on the gubmint for their healthcare and education.

In the deep South, poor black men were infected with syphilis (the "Tuskegee Experiment") so the effects of late-stage syphilis could be studied by the Feds (the study lasted 40 years and ended in 1972). These men were deliberately infected with the disease and were not offered any treatment. It is one of the most deplorable things the American government has ever done to a segment of its own citizens. I bet the Native Americans have this kind of skeleton in the closet too, but the truth about it has not yet seen the light of day. Wasn't it bad enough that the white man introduced alcohol onto the reservations so now the rates of alcoholism in the Native American population are probably the highest of all races?

Miulang

I don't know about NDN's being experimented on but of course it is conceivable. My question is whether intentional infection of Hawaiians is documented or even reliably rumored to have happened?

[Sindahrella808]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

I don't think I have ever heard any discussion on intentional genocide of the Hawaiian Population. Honestly, I truly believe, it was one of many ramifications of Western contact and eventual settlement. Any isolated population with no natural immunity would have suffered the same unfortunate destiny if suddenly introduced to the numerous germs and viruses common in the West.

By the time the Disease started to spread, there was no stopping it. Very sad, but I don't believe it was planned.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

By the time the Disease started to spread, there was no stopping it. Very sad, but I don't believe it was planned.

Although I might reserve some suspicion and blame for those whalers who dumped a barrel of stale mosquito-infested water into a Hawaiian stream and unleashed the makika to plague the islands.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Although I might reserve some suspicion and blame for those whalers who dumped a barrel of stale mosquito-infested water into a Hawaiian stream and unleashed the makika to plague the islands.

Yet to do so assumes that previous generations actually understood the ramifications of their actions. David Suzuki, unquestionably one of the world's most vocal and respected environmental scientists, has said that at the time many of our worst biological and environmental plagues were first unleashed, humanity simply did not have any knowledge of the damages that could be done. Scientists did not know what the long-term effects of DDT would be at the time it was introduced; they only knew that it was a solution to pest infestations of crops.

There was no understanding of the inter-connectedness of nature then, and that was fewer than 100 years ago. Those whalers were not likely to know that there were no mosquitos in Hawai`i at the time (I didn't even know that, either.) With today's eyes, we can look back at many of the world's wrongs and say "those damn whatevers, who unleashed this on us" - but it's likely that their fault was not intentional, but ignorant.

Yet in today's world, we (supposedly) know better, and we still abuse the planet and its inhabitants - a hundred years from now, people will not be so forgiving of the present generation.

(Man - sometimes, I even depress myself...)

[sinjin]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

I don't think I have ever heard any discussion on intentional genocide of the Hawaiian Population. Honestly, I truly believe, it was one of many ramifications of Western contact and eventual settlement. Any isolated population with no natural immunity would have suffered the same unfortunate destiny if suddenly introduced to the numerous germs and viruses common in the West.

By the time the Disease started to spread, there was no stopping it. Very sad, but I don't believe it was planned.

I think it important not to throw the term genocide around casually.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

I think it important not to throw the term genocide around casually.

Good point. Genocide is defined as systematic and planned, so it wouldn't be correct to describe anything as "unintentional genocide." (Which, I note, is not what Sindahrella 808 said; she did say that she had NOT "heard any discussion on intentional genocide of the Hawaiian Population." I didn't take that to mean that she thought it was what had happened in this case.)

[sinjin]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Good point. Genocide is defined as systematic and planned, so it wouldn't be correct to describe anything as "unintentional genocide." (Which, I note, is not what Sindahrella 808 said; she did say that she had NOT "heard any discussion on intentional genocide of the Hawaiian Population." I didn't take that to mean that she thought it was what had happened in this case.)

It was GypsyLika that suggested intentional infecting of the Hawaiian people. See post #77.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

It was GypsyLika that suggested intentional infecting of the Hawaiian people. See post #77.

Thank you for the clarification, sinjin. You had quoted from Sindahrella 808, however, so that's what I was responding to.

[lurkah]

Re: Those Hawaiians, Those Mainlanders!

Scientists did not know what the long-term effects of DDT would be at the time it was introduced; they only knew that it was a solution to pest infestations of crops.

And that same ignorance is why as a young kid I used to ride my bike in the dark at night following, as deeply into the dark, billowy, smokey wake as I possibly could, the mosquito truck that used to routinely drive up and down the valleys of 'Oahu using its rear-mounted smoke machine to spread its DDT-laced smoke for the purpose of controlling the spread of mosquitoes.

And look at me now.