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  • #91
    Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

    Originally posted by craigwatanabe
    Wal-Mart has deep pockets meaning they can finance health care costs better than Mom and Pop as well as other benefits such as vacation, sick leave, educational subsidies and other benefits granted by a larger employer.

    In other words Wal-Mart will take care of their employees' needs better than Mom and Pop could ever do.
    this is a fallacy.

    quoting;

    In some testimony I read, payroll personnel stated they were told by store managers to go into the payroll system and "erase" overtime hours of some employees, or to show break times for employees, even if they took no break, to keep their payroll budget in line.

    In other cases, managers told employees to clock out, and then called them back to their department to do additional work. Or, asked them to come in early, and then would not permit them to clock in for a couple of hours.

    Behavior like this is not just illegal, it's morally bankrupt.


    Wal-Mart will also create more jobs than Mom and Pop could ever commit to.
    this also is a fallacy.

    Wal-Mart, by pushing out competition, eliminates three jobs for every two jobs it creates.


    More jobs means the government gets more taxes and less subsidy recipients. With more tax dollars in the general fund, our legislators can direct more funds to greater causes like education and human services while reducing those on subsidies.
    yea. they are great for the economy:

    Walmart has been caught instructing their employees how to apply for public assistance so they can keep their wages down.


    Mom and Pop may have been a tradition, but it's an expensive burden on society because they provide limited jobs and thus miniscule tax revenue. Mom and Pop cannot provide for their employees in the form of benefits the way Wal-Mart can.
    wow.
    Craig. You should work for the Walmart PR.media liaison dept.


    When it comes to putting food on the dinner table, keeping my kids well and paying for their education, Wal-Mart takes care of it's employees.
    try taking a look at the web sites that recount in first person how these employees are taken care of.


    People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer,
    another fallacy

    They were using Illegal Aliens in their stores. This problem is probably corrected now since the big publicity shake up on it, but Walmart was willing to break the law to save money.
    I quote:


    Wal-Mart: An Equal Opportunity Exploiter


    Just when you think Wal-Mart couldn't exploit its employees any more, you find out they've been preying on another group of vulnerable workers. A grand jury is investigating Wal-Mart for its role in exploiting undocumented workers who clean Wal-Mart stores.*


    "We Czechs are willing to sacrifice and work hard, but we definitely weren't earning enough money," said Pavel, one of the detained workers who told the New York Times (11/5/03) he worked every night for eight months without a night off, overtime pay or health benefits.


    *Wal-Mart had profits last year of $8 billion and the CEO received $18 million in total compensation.

    On Oct. 23, government immigration officials arrested 250 alleged undocumented immigrants at 61 Wal-Mart stores in 21 states. Almost all the workers were employed by contractors to provide overnight cleaning services. Ten were Wal-Mart employees recently hired away from contractors.

    Federal officials said that wiretapped conversations suggested that Wal-Mart executives knew the contractors were using undocumented workers. This comes several years after 13 Wal-Mart cleaning subcontractors pleaded guilty to illegal hiring practices. Wal-Mart could face criminal charges and possible fines of up to $10,000 per illegal worker.


    In nearly 40 lawsuits across the country, Wal-Mart faces charges from forcing their employees to work overtime without pay....


    Shoppers hate Mom and Pop stores because there is little selection available on the shelves and the prices are higher because Mom and Pop cannot wholesale buy the way Wal-Mart can.
    Walmart does not only buy wholesale. They contract to china for knockoffs when name brands here are not willing to cut their profits to a few percentage points, which many do, reducing jobs or forcing the company out of business. Read the web sites for allll the examples of this.


    The only thing Mom and Pop has over Wal-Mart is nostalgia.
    it is a sad day when all these little stores we grew up with have and had only one thing to offer, in retrospect; nostalgia.
    sad empty heart and memory, that.


    The problem with nostalgia is that it doesn't pay for your health coverage, it doesn't put food on the table for your family, it doesn't bring in enough tax revenue to take care of our needy on subsidies, or repave Kapiolani Blvd, or pay our government workers like police, fire, ambulance, trash.

    One thing Wal-Mart cannot do that has hurt the Bush administration is to out source it's cashiers and stock clerks to an overseas company, so jobs created stay in the borders of the U.S.
    No they simply outsource everything else. And all the jobs are in China at a buck an hour. American jobs are decimated via the walmart way of doing business.
    Last edited by kimo55; August 23, 2004, 11:14 AM.

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    • #92
      Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

      Originally posted by craigwatanabe
      Wal-Mart will take care of their employees' needs better than Mom and Pop could ever do.

      Mom and Pop wants you to open the store, keep it clean, transact it's goods, balance the cash register receipts, close the store, and paint the facade for below minimum wage and expect you to do it without a paid vacation, paid sickleave and paid healthcare. They tell you not to report a safety infraction because they can't afford the TDI insurance increase in their premiums for making a TDI report. They tell you if you want more money, then to work Sundays for half day.

      People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer

      The only thing Mom and Pop has over Wal-Mart is nostalgia.

      read anything from this:

      http://www.ufcw.org/issues_and_actio...mony/index.cfm

      and you soon will be yearning for the nostalgic old days.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

        Originally posted by mel
        Ah yes, and that is why Hawaii is well known as an anti-business state because of socialistic policies advanced by 40+ years of Democratic "leadership". The cumulative effect of state government socialism has been one of the major factors in contributing to the decline and struggle of not only small businesses, but business in general. Sure there are a lot of businesses still around, but because of regulations, taxes, mandates, etc., everything just costs the consumers as well as the businesses themselves more money.




        The healthcare system in America is fine as is. We don't need no Clinton/Kerry socialistic welfare programs (and really now, this probably has to be moved to another topic)...... and that is all I have to say for now.

        Frankly I am not surprised that most people around here will support socialistic health care since this board is populated by liberal Kerry leaning leftists.



        Yes, I am sure all you WalMart haters believe a conspiracy involving the firm lurks at every corner.

        Thank you, Mel, for showing your true Republican colors. Enough said.

        Miulang
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

          Obviously Kimo is on a roll, here, but I find his citation of various charges of failing to pay overtime and undocumented workers somewhat entertaining.

          One, when you're talking about sample size, obviously a company with a million employees will have more issues in dispute than a company with four employees. Also, as Craig noted, given the built-in nepotism that drives most family-run businesses, the likelihood of anyone filing grievances or lawsuits against someone who's probably a relative or friend is pretty slim.

          Two, I'd wager the unassailable, honorable, poor, pitiable "mom and pop" store is just as likely to be fudging numbers and slipping things under the table. Ms. Kobashigawa on Lime Street in Mo`ili`ili might very well have a rule against hiring haoles, but that's not likely to bring the Labor Department in. Neither is Cafe Koapakalolo in Chinatown, despite the fact that the owner's three minor children are working in the kitchen. How about Mr. Wong of Akamai Carpentry LLC, who pays all his employees in cash, thus avoiding pesky things like insurance and overtime altogether?

          WalMart is a big target, and easy to hit. And there are definitely big geopolitical issues involved in whether it is a "good" company, and whether "returning value to shareholders" is as worthy a definition of "good" as is "making the world a better place." But while a mom and pop makes for great David & Goliath feature copy, I'd be careful about putting them up on a pedestal.

          I don't exactly worship or praise WalMart, but I shop there. As someone mentioned earlier, it's not a matter of brand loyalty or pro-capitalist idealism, it's a matter of simple economics -- and yes, if BobMart suddenly sprung up, charging 30 percent less for toilet paper and baby clothes, you bet your sweet bippy I'd drive right past Sam Walton's castle to shop there instead.

          And yes, I will happily pay a premium for better service, and do in a few instances. Lex Brodie's is taking me to the cleaners on labor costs and who knows what else, but I have such a good relationship with some of the folks there, I'd rather deal with them than someplace cheaper but less inviting.

          What has struck me more often than not, though, when shopping around various jobs, is that a lot of local "small business" - despite being beset on all sides by big-box retailers and other evils - aren't trying very hard at all to earn my business. In fact, when trying to find one vendor for a $70,000 job last year, it was all I could do to get four out of six companies to return our calls.
          Last edited by pzarquon; August 23, 2004, 03:58 PM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

            Again thanks to Kimo reading some of the comments of former WalMart workers...they can't all be biased. BTW doesn't Starbucks "own" or have something to do with Jamba Juice...and here I like Jamba Juice! But again going on principles...I won't support a company that pushes out the little guy.
            Retired Senior Member

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            • #96
              Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

              Originally posted by Mocha
              BTW doesn't Starbucks "own" or have something to do with Jamba Juice...and here I like Jamba Juice! But again going on principles...I won't support a company that pushes out the little guy.
              As of this date, SBUX doesn't own JambaJuice yet. SBUX does own Seattle's Best Coffee and Torrefazione Coffee and Tazo Tea. The only reason I know this is because I am one of those evil, capitalist shareholders. I happen to like SBUX's treatment of employees (bennies even for part time baristas, including health insurance and day care). The one thing I wish they would be a little more conscious of is what their buying practices are doing to people in the countries where they buy their coffee. However, they have made a token gesture with their "Free Trade" line of coffees. They also don't have a very good record of having minorities in top management, but every year at the shareholder's meeting, we bring these things up and Howard Schultz (the CEO) and his henchpeople promise to do better the next year. SBUX also gives away quite a bit of money to community based programs and their employees also participate in many community activities.

              Jamba's a pretty cool company, too. When their first store opened up on Maui last year, they had a promotion where if you brought in a 10 lb bag of rice, they would give you a coupon for a free drink (not a bad deal, since some of those Jamba drinks, when you load up on all the extras, can be very pricey). They then turned around and donated the rice to the Maui Food Bank.

              Companies (even multinational ones) that give back to the communities in which they have stores are OK in my book, in the same way that mom and pop businesses are a true part of a community.

              It will be interesting to see how much money WalMart gives away in charitable contributions to 501(c)(3)s in the Honolulu area (they do give out grants to children's welfare organizations up here) once they have built their store. If they do that, then I might grudgingly call them at least a "responsible" neighbor.

              Miulang
              Last edited by Miulang; August 23, 2004, 05:38 PM.
              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                Originally posted by kimo55
                No they simply outsource everything else. And all the jobs are in China at a buck an hour. American jobs are decimated via the walmart way of doing business.
                BTW Kimo: It's not just the manufacturing jobs that are being outsourced now. The next time you call customer service at say, HP, ask the cheerful agent where s/he is located. If they are not lying (and some call centers overseas train their employees to lie about their locations just so they can fool people like me), the person lives in Bombay or somewhere in India.

                They are also outsourcing critical programming jobs everywhere in this country. Where once highly educated foreign nationals had to struggle to obtain their H-1 visas, now American companies (MicroSquishy included) make no bones about having Indian employees, except that they don't have to bring them to this county anymore...they have built multiple campuses for their Indian programmers.

                The saddest part of outsourcing is that a lot of the time the people being outsourced are Americans who are forced to train the people who will replace them in India or Bangladesh. So while our jobless rates continues to verge on the obscene, the economies of many other countries are thriving because of the bucks we're infusing into their economies. Information technology, especially programming, used to be a highly prized skillset. Nowadays, that skillset is being devalued because many American technology companies realize they can have the same braintrust for far less money if they move away from this country.

                Miulang
                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                  Originally posted by mel
                  You don't know me. How can you make an assumption?
                  It doesn't take a rocket scientist that that you hate big government.
                  You would rather have everyone fend for themselves. That is at least
                  my view of all you have written.
                  Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                  The Kona Blog

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                    Originally posted by Miulang
                    BTW Kimo: It's not just the manufacturing jobs that are being outsourced now. The next time you call customer service at say, HP, ask the cheerful agent where s/he is located.

                    I called up Verizon DSL Tech support and the guy I spoke to sounded
                    like he was in in India.He also made references that lead me to believe
                    that he was there also.
                    Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                    The Kona Blog

                    Comment


                    • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                      Originally posted by craigwatanabe

                      Wal-Mart won't make you rich, but it'll keep you off welfare and keep your family fed and healthy. From a family and economic perspective, Wal-Mart is a good thing.

                      Could you feed yourself working 28 hours a week ? that is what most Wal-Mart
                      employees work per week.
                      Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                      The Kona Blog

                      Comment


                      • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                        Originally posted by pzarquon
                        What has struck me more often than not, though, when shopping around various jobs, is that a lot of local "small business" - despite being beset on all sides by big-box retailers and other evils - aren't trying very hard at all to earn my business. In fact, when trying to find one vendor for a $70,000 job last year, it was all I could do to get four out of six companies to return our calls.
                        The main reason why those mom and pop businesses don't seem to want your business is because they don't have staffs full of MBA's telling them that in order to survive, they have to be aggressive and go after your business. For these guys, who have only known hard work and dealing with their customers on a one-to-one basis, what do they know about customer relationship management except that a man's handshake is as good as his word? The disconnect is putting the small businessperson at a distinct disadvantage unless they have people who work for them (maybe an MBA grandson or daughter) who understand the new business economy. These are the small businesses that tend to do fairly well and can compete pretty evenly with the big guys. The value add some of these small businesses bring is that "personal touch" that a lot of large non-family run corporations have no idea how to instill into their corporate culture.

                        Miulang
                        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                          Originally posted by craigwatanabe
                          People looking for jobs embrace businesses like Wal-Mart because it's an equal-opportunity employer, government loves Wal-Mart because it brings in tax revenue and addresses public health and safety by improving the land around the building. Shoppers love Wal-Mart because the prices are cheaper than anything Mom and Pop can sell.
                          "...staying in town to be reinvested locally, the money is hauled off to Bentonville, either to be used as capital for conquering yet another town or simply to be stashed in the family vaults (the Waltons, by the way, just bought the biggest bank in Arkansas).





                          It’s our world Why should we accept this? Is it our country, our communities, our economic destinies-or theirs? Wal-Mart’s radical remaking of our labor standards and our local economies is occurring mostly without our knowledge or consent. Poof-there goes another local business. Poof-there goes our middle-class wages. Poof-there goes another factory to China. No one voted for this . . . but there it is. While corporate ideologues might huffily assert that customers vote with their dollars, it’s an election without a campaign, conveniently ignoring that the public’s "vote" might change if we knew the real cost of Wal-Mart’s "cheap" goods-and if we actually had a chance to vote."



                          People hate Mom and Pop stores because ....

                          Shoppers hate Mom and Pop stores because....

                          I have been here my whole life and i NEVER met one person who: "hate Mom and Pop stores"...

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                          • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                            Reminds me of the old chestnut from the "Pogo" comic strip: "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"

                            Shoppers "love" WalMart because they don't take the time to learn what's going on around them and in the world. If they put themselves into the shoes of most WalMart employees, they wouldn't love shopping at WalMart.

                            Miulang
                            Last edited by Miulang; August 23, 2004, 07:30 PM.
                            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                              Originally posted by Miulang
                              The main reason why those mom and pop businesses don't seem to want your business is because they don't have staffs full of MBA's telling them that in order to survive, they have to be aggressive and go after your business.
                              True, and it's no fault of their own that times are changing as fast as they are. Fact of the matter is, as I came to discover at my last job (where one of my primary responsibilities was working with vendors), a lot of "mom and pop," local, family small businesses aren't interested in my business. Not neccessarily because they're incompetent, but because for them, the level of business they already have is enough. There's no motivation to "grow their market" or whatever, they just want to get by, keep their current customers happy, and maybe retire someday.

                              Working as I was with people who do business in Hong Kong, New York, Singapore and the like, a "salesman who doesn't want to sell" was a mind-bogglingly foreign concept, let me tell you.

                              It's not a long-term strategy, but when you look at the history of the "mom and pop," that's usually not the underlying plan anyway. So the kids don't want to run Hasegawa's General Store. The older generation closes up shop while the younger generation chases their dreams somewhere else.

                              Apart from the above, though, I also have worked with businesses (and been in restaurants and stores) where the people there seem openly hostileto customers - as if we're ruining their day by being there. That's not acceptible in my book, and I won't shed a tear if that kind of "local business" has to close its doors.

                              As we've said may times here: They can't compete on price? Then they sure as hell better kick the service up a notch. Only a few places, sadly, meet that challenge.

                              Originally posted by Kimo55
                              I have been here my whole life and i NEVER met one person who: "hate Mom and Pop stores"...
                              Selective reading? Craig's already conceded that "hate" was a strong word and clarified himself a bit.

                              One can certainly "prefer" a mainland chain over a mom and pop. Price is an obvious reason. So is, perhaps, more consistency in their offerings (i.e. no "We'll get another shipment on the next Young Brothers barge, I think..."), a wider selection, and a multitude of other advantages that come with size. Warranties and returns at a mom and pop? Only if you're good friends with the owner!

                              I shop with both my wallet and my heart, in that I'll balance price with service. So, yeah, I still walk into City Mill at least as often as I do Home Depot, or Flora Dec (are they "local"?) as well as Ross' or WalMart. But I don't condemn successful companies as inherently evil, and I certainly don't give empty "bonus points" to a company whose corporate address is in Honolulu.

                              Originally posted by Miulang
                              Shoppers "love" WalMart because they don't take the time to learn what's going on around them and in the world.
                              More assumptions? I'm very aware of what's going on in the world. I've read dozens of essays about how WalMart does business -- and yes, how it's not always in the best interests of suppliers. I know all about their aggressive stance against unions. (Now that WalMart is really taking hold here in Hawaii, I secretly hope that this is the place where the unionization battle really heats up.) I know lots of communities have fought WalMart, that it's come down to voters taking a stand... I think the folks at Sprawl Busters are doing a great job, even. Democracy at work.

                              I could stand to see WalMart taken down a peg or two. I certainly don't love them and worship them. But I shop there. And I think it's ridiculous to think everyone who shops there is ignorant. Some of us know more than we want to know about stretching dollars, and frankly, you have to pick your battles.
                              Last edited by pzarquon; August 23, 2004, 07:40 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Wal-Mart on Keeaumoku

                                I'm not talking about the profit dollars made and sent to HQ on the mainland, I'm talking about payroll dollars that go into the pockets of it's staff. I'm talking about the excise tax that is levied by the State of Hawaii, I'm talking about property taxes that go into the County's general fund, I'm talking about lease monies (in Hilo) that go to OHA, I'm also talking about those dollars that go to Hawaii Made products that Wal-Mart sells as their policy.

                                These are real dollars and cents that stay here in Hawaii and fuel our local economy. Corporate greed may seem bad but who the heck cares? Does Wal-Mart give you good value for your hard earned dollar? Does it give you convenience while shopping there? Does it employ our local population creating jobs here in Hawaii?

                                When you invest your money don't you put it in companies like Vanguard, Smith-Barney, Putnam, GE? These aren't local companies. When you make a good return on your investment you don't call yourself greedy, you call yourself savvy. So these corporate fat cats are getting rich off your purchases. Are they ripping you off with high pricing? No they're not, they're providing a service to you the consumer to purchase goods at a great price, unlike Mom and Pop stores.

                                If I want to be charitable (and I am) I donate and participate in community service. I didn't earn my paycheck to end up keeping a hole in the wall in business by paying more for goods there instead of a superstore where I can get it cheaper.

                                If you want to shop at a Mom and Pop sundries store, then go for it. As for me I want to stretch my hard earned buck as far as possible, and spending it at McCully Superette is not my idea of saving money.

                                I'm sorry but when I was having a hard time when the economy soured, did any hole in the wall come to my aid? No way. Did they drop their prices for the sake of their patrons? No way. And yet they expect me to shop there when the big box retailers come treading in their neighborhood? Forget it.

                                Some sundries stores only accept cash. I'm sorry but because of that I limit my purchases there to whatever I got in my wallet and it ain't much. Not convenient for me and not good for them when I buy only $20 worth of groceries instead of $100 at Safeway.

                                And don't think these Mom and Pop's are all that innocent either. Look carefully and you'll see that isle that has the porn magazines and video tapes. You won't find that at Wal-Mart. Most alcohol and cigarettes are sold at these small shops to minors too. You won't see much of that at Safeway. What else do they sell? Go to Harry's Liquer Store on Waimanu street and look inside the glass case you'll be amazed at the stuff they sell there specifically for smoking crack along with the standard sundries fare that qualifies it as a Mom and Pop store.

                                If I have to get a few items, I'll go to a Wal-Mart over a Mom and Pop store anyday. I'll save those trips to Kaimuki Sundries or Rainbow Mart for the nostalgia. But that's what Kaimuki Crack Seed is for. And they don't sell Alcohol or porn either.
                                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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