Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Auwe Palolo Joe...see what you get for thinking? Remember those days when you get into one beef and then after you best friends! How you figgah!

It's not sucking up...but respecting your opinion and statements and still come out smelling good. Now that's cool. That says you can dish it out and take it too and still come out in style.

So Palolo Joe...here's to you braddah...one buggah dat get plenty pride and no kea about anyone else! AND no fraid to come back and show face. Now das pride man! And for dat I give you one biiiiggggg hug

I tell you what... I respect Craig quite a bit more now than I did before. He's taken steps both on HT and in PM to settle our differences, and that's a lot more than some other donkeys on here would ever think of doing.

And you're right Craig. That kine beef and settle your differences is local style... moreso than trying to "make nice" while still making backhanded comments on a regular basis (And that's a general observation - not one that's directed at any specific user.).

Kampai!!!

[MadAzza]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

I tell you what... I respect Craig quite a bit more now than I did before. He's taken steps both on HT and in PM to settle our differences, and that's a lot more than some other donkeys on here would ever think of doing.

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, helpfully holding up a mirror for Eeyore as a smiley emoticon floated in the breeze nearby.

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Speak about a donkey, and one appears... why am I not surprised?

[lurkah]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, helpfully holding up a mirror for Eeyore as a smiley emoticon floated in the breeze nearby.

*whoosh*

You'll be needing to adjust for elevation on the next one, Maddie.

[MadAzza]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Speak about a donkey, and one appears... why am I not surprised?

Another mighty keyboard flex! Why am I not surprised?

[Palolo Joe]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Another mighty keyboard flex! Why am I not surprised?

Another mighty wiseass remark! And a hanger-on jumping in to take a swipe! Why am I not surprised?

[Andy]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Looks like this thread is dead already, but oh well. I'm a newbie here trying to tie several pieces of this thread together. Plus, I'm on Kauai where this problem is magnified.

I think the argument that Wal-Mart is the new Longs for Hawaii is not valid. What Wal-Mart and all the other big boxes bring to Hawaii is consumption. Big box stores are all about getting you to buy more stuff, more than you really need, with more packaging (I can't stand those flats of 12oz bottled water). Longs does it too, so does Hasegawa's but nowhere near the same scale. And I think that clashes with the "old" Hawaii attitude of life being simple, relaxed, outdoors, no bling, etc.

Here's an example: You walk miles to your Walmart photo-counter past rows of flashy displays in the middle of the aisle promoting music CDs. Sure, some of them are local artists, but usually it's the latest pop that Wal-Mart has contracted with the music industry to unload on America. Longs sells CDs at the photo counter too, but it's not so in-your-face, and most of it is local.

I always hear about people being happy Costco is opening on Kauai, they will finally have more choice, more stuff to buy, etc. As others have pointed out, it's a self-serving cycle of consumerism and addiction. What the big boxes do is feed that psychologial need until the old laid-back lifestyle has been conquered. Factoring in the pressures of development, you end up with people stressed out, having to work two jobs, and stuck in traffic, while their old enjoyments (ohana, homestead, garden, fishing, etc) have become unaffordable with the cost/pressure of real-estate and overcrowding.

And once the "old" way of life is broken, everything gets haolefied. You used to shop at Big Save and get shave ice from the guy out front who plays the ukulele between customers, now you give the kids a "taro" pie at McDonalds inside WalMart. In the same way, Ikea laminated particle board furniture may work in SoCal, but not with the humidity and mold in Hawaii. So the landfills get even more crap as people throw out furniture every 2 years--what are you people thinking?

Another aspect of this debate is cost. Everyone seems to accept the fact that Wal-Mart is cheaper, so it must be better, it must be good for residents and tourists alike. But the problem is that nearly all of the big box jobs are minimum-wage-not-enough-to-live-on in Hawaii. OK, so Wal-Mart doesn't pay much, but doesn't cost much either, so it all breaks even you say. Unless you were tempted and bought that crappy music for $10 ("wow, that's cheap for a CD"), wiping out all you saved by shopping there in the first place (it would be almost worth it for good music, but that's so rarely the case). And the big difference is that all the profits go to the mainland, sucked out of the local economy.

So some are saying "don't shop there if you don't like it" or vote with your dollars and it will go away when nobody wants it. The problem is that the big retailers with their money have an advantage over the residents. They can work the political system, the permitting system, even the economy. Look at how many people are struggling nowadays, that means a constant clientele for WalMart. I hear Pizza Hut is flying employees to the Big Island, why don't they just pay more? That's how big money plays the game, because they wouldn't want to set a precedent by actually paying local employees more money.

The same is true for the mainland franchises. Somebody said they need their triple-shot espresso, which they usually get from Starbucks, and only if they can't find Starbucks do they look for the local joint (in the perfect example of consumerist addiction successfully tied to corporate identity). So chains with flashy, recognizable shops in expensive locations get all the traffic, eventually starving the independent shops. Even if Starbucks served Kona or Kaua'i coffee, the point is they do it in a way incompatible with the "old" way of life.

All this leads to my opinion that "now that I'm here, stop the development" is legitimate. Costco buys land, applies for permits, and changes the island forever (see http://great-hikes.com/blog/?p=149). Why shouldn't residents be allowed to become political, modify the permitting rules, and change the island forever for the benefit of the locals. Captialism is first come, first developed, first profits, but it's still a democracy of what the people want. If you want more big boxes, that's your right, but if I want less, it's my right to fight them, too. People should come first, and most people on Kaua'i, whether born here or moved here, want less development.

Full disclosure: my wife and I grew up in Europe and moved to Kaua'i 3 years ago, after spending 2 years in California.

[damontucker]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Looks like this thread is dead already,

Well the person that started this thread is still licking his wounds

[Bard]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Welcome to the forums, Andy! What a first post I hear ya though. People in Portland have been fighting the encroachment of big box stores too for a long time now. It's not too bad -- there are a LOT of local businesses to go to here and they are generally quite good. It's kinda funny though, all the people who like those box stores so much moved out to the suburbs, so while we have some box stores on the outskirts, drive out to a suburb and it's like you ended up in some "upscale living" marketing brochure.

[tikiyaki]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Hey andy.

Great Post, and a really great perspective. Despite the fact that you singled out,and attacked almost all the points I made :-)
That being said, you did so very eloquently and respectfully, which is appreciated.

Just a few things. Starbucks, tho' now one the biggest Corporate Chains in the world, and certainly the biggest coffee chain, had very humble beginnings as a single mom and pop store in a farmers market in Seattle.
I knew someone that grew up there, and he used to go with his mom to "Starbucks Coffee Bean Company" when she bought her coffee for the house. Also, they are always voted one of the top companies to work for in Forbes. In most stores, you start at about $8 per hour, and only have to work 20 hours a week minimum to get FULL health benefits.
Other than the homogenization of the neighborhood aesthetic, I would think that this is a good for the working economy, where places like Wal Mart play miminum wage.
Disclosure : I worked for Starbucks for about 2 weeks and decided it wasn't for me. That being said, I still think their coffee and service is top notch.

As far as IKEA and the warping particleboard, how is it that places like Seattle have IKEA with all that rainy damp weather, wouldn't there be the same issue there ? Just a question, not a challenge.

Alot of what you say I agree with, and if you see a post I did earlier, you will see how my little crappy town is fighting Home Depot tooth and nail from opening here, as well as McMansionization. At one of the town hall meetings, someone brought up a statistic that a new Home Depot was opening EVERY DAY in the US....ONE A DAY !!!Talk about unnecessary commerce.

I also agree with your point about selling people what they don't need. I am in agreement that making Hawaii look like any other suburb in America would be a travesty, but people DO need to shop, and the price of real estate and cost of living makes it very difficult for Mam and Pop to operate and still make a living. Unfortunately, I think it's like that everywhere. That is the reality of the present, and, yea, I think it sucks.

I can't tell you how pissed off I get when I see that cool 1950's coffee shop or Tiki restaurat here in LA, close and some foreign investor come in and destroy the whole thing and put up some faux Mediterranian looking stucco condo complex. I'd hate to see this in Hawaii too, and hopefully the residents will be able to rally together like they did in my town and raise a little hell.
There IS a balance that can be achieved, but people do have to at least try and stand up and fight for it.

[Miulang]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Re: the climate in Seattle wreaking havoc on particle board furniture: We actually average less annual rainfall than Buffalo, NY! (Seattle averages 36.2 inches while Buffalo has an average of 38.6 inches). About half of the year we have gray skies, though. I think the problem with pressed board and Hawai'i is the humidity; Seattle isn't nearly as humid as Hawai'i. I think mold is also more of a problem in Hawai'i than in Seattle (except on cedar roofs).

I certainly can't disparage SBUX. I'm a shareholder and have seen my piddly little investment value grow 9x since I bought shares 15 years ago.

All the WalMarts in this part of the state are in the 'burbs. Seattle itself doesn't have any and won't in the very near future, either, although we've got Walgreen stores on nearly every other corner. But we've got a Home Depot a few blocks away from a Lowe's, we have Costcos all over the place (of course, they were first built here), but we also have the land and the population to support those big box stores. Hawai'i has very finite land and you've got commercial buildings competing with residential construction for that land.

Miulang

[Bard]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Re: the climate in Seattle wreaking havoc on particle board furniture: We actually average less annual rainfall than Buffalo, NY! (Seattle averages 36.2 inches while Buffalo has an average of 38.6 inches). About half of the year we have gray skies, though. I think the problem with pressed board and Hawai'i is the humidity; Seattle isn't nearly as humid as Hawai'i. I think mold is also more of a problem in Hawai'i than in Seattle (except on cedar roofs).

Yeah, people are often shocked to learn that the Pacific Northwest gets so little rain for its reputation. It's just very overcast, and the rain we get tends to come in drizzles that occasionally last days at a time, like the veggie spritzer at the grocery store. Especially during the summer it can be very dry, where it goes weeks at a time with no rain. Nothing like Arizona or something, but much less than people expect. Go farther "mauka" by 50-100 miles or so, and it's desert.

[tikiyaki]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

Well, I guess that explains all the bamboo furniture on the islands.

[beaker]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

I always hear about people being happy Costco is opening on Kauai, they will finally have more choice, more stuff to buy, etc. As others have pointed out, it's a self-serving cycle of consumerism and addiction. What the big boxes do is feed that psychologial need until the old laid-back lifestyle has been conquered. Factoring in the pressures of development, you end up with people stressed out, having to work two jobs, and stuck in traffic, while their old enjoyments (ohana, homestead, garden, fishing, etc) have become unaffordable with the cost/pressure of real-estate and overcrowding.

Don't forget human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - MASS HYSTERIA! Congratulations, you're officially nominated for the Rabid Kook of the Month award.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Mainland Chains vs. Island Culture

You can still enjoy the simplicities of an older generational lifestyle and still have your pantry stocked with goods from either a mom and pop or a big box retailer. The difference is that your pantry will be better stocked at a lower price allowing you to enjoy a simpler lifestyle because you don't need two jobs to pay for goods now.

Heck if Kauai loves Costco, let em eat cake too! Costco is opening up here in Hilo soon and I haven't heard one complaint yet from the people I run into and I meet quite a few people everyday here.