Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

[Miulang]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Which I think is a good development. Given that catching fish from the wild is yielding lower and lower results each year, it's nice to give some relief to the wild stock so they can replenish yet by fish farming, our fisherman have an alternate viable means. I know there are still some problems to be worked out, such as the massive amount of waste produced by a large number of fish concentrated in a cage or the fact that farming fish may actually consume more wild fish because you do need to feed the farmed fish. But maybe a vegeterian diet can be substituted? Soy? I really think the state should push this area for growth, use the resources that are plentiful to this state. And what better resource than the Pacific Ocean right at your disposal?

One thing to remember is that when you go buy that farmed fish, it will cost you more money. Fishing from the ocean is free, but those pellets that fish are fed cost money. Kona Kampachi right now retails for almost $20/lb; fresh ahi (up here on CONUS) generally around $16-20/lb. Even farmed Altantic salmon costs $9-10/lb. Not many people are going to be able or want to pay that much.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

One thing to remember is that when you go buy that farmed fish, it will cost you more money. Fishing from the ocean is free, but those pellets that fish are fed cost money. Kona Kampachi right now retails for almost $20/lb; fresh ahi (up here on CONUS) generally around $16-20/lb. Even farmed Altantic salmon costs $9-10/lb. Not many people are going to be able or want to pay that much.

Miulang

That's actually fine with me because I think people in America waste a lot of food just because they can. Maybe if they see the real cost of certain food, they'll appreciate it more. Besides, other factors help offset the cost of feeding farmed fish. You no longer have to invest in a fishing fleet, the fuel it uses, and the manpower in trawling large distances to get your catch. And you don't end up catching a lot of so called "unwanted" sealife which ends up needlessly dying.

[Bard]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Not many people are going to be able or want to pay that much.

They will when there's nothing left but farmed fish. I don't have a link handy but I read an article not too long ago that figures that at our current rate of depletion and pollution, most or all ocean life will be extinct by 2050 or so.

[Miulang]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

They will when there's nothing left but farmed fish. I don't have a link handy but I read an article not too long ago that figures that at our current rate of depletion and pollution, most or all ocean life will be extinct by 2050 or so.

But they are also saying there's still time to reverse the trend. Fish farming is one possibility and so is becoming vegetarian.

Miulang

[Bard]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

'Course seeing as how people continue to breed like rabbits and each generation seems to expect as good or better than the last... we'll see if the changes actually fix the problem.

(Ok, done with my cynicism for now... )

[Miulang]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

'Course seeing as how people continue to breed like rabbits and each generation seems to expect as good or better than the last... we'll see if the changes actually fix the problem.

(Ok, done with my cynicism for now... )

Yeah, the unfortunate reality is kids today will NEVER have it as good as their parents did (as opposed to the Boomers who are living better than their Depression-era parents). But it's amazing to see how valiantly today's parents are trying to give their kids a better life than they had growing up.

Look at the number of brand new cars that kids drive to high school these days compared to the beaters their parents drive in order to support the lifestyle to which they have come to spoil their children with! Look at how many "boomerang kids" end up living at home in their 20s and 30s because it's too hard for these kids to live on their own. When I was growing up, my parents wouldn't give me everything that I asked for. I had an allowance and had to pay for all the "extras" out of that account. I didn't have the same high expectations of material gratification that today's kids have (gotta gotta have that $600 PS3!)

The reason for this is because there is no middle class anymore...you're either very rich or poor.

Miulang

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Back o-t...there used to be an individual frequenting these boards who was vehemently against mainland companies disrupting the ways of life in Hawai`i.

Considering that companies such as Dole and DelMonte came in and ran pineapple operations in the Islands for so long (keeping in mind, as we all know, that pineapples are not indigenous to Hawai`i), how do you think this mindset would view this issue? Would they be glad to see a mainland operation leave the state, no matter the cost to the locals formerly employed by those companies? How would they balance mixed concerns such as these?

Just curious - does anyone care to post from this perspective (without diverting into discussions, intelligent as they may be, of minimum wage, lefty politics, or aquaculture?)

[damontucker]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Leo - If were thinking of the same Dinosaur

I think he/she might be having a chuckle at the company... but then might be feeling a bit remorsed for the people working the fields...

(but then again... the people working the fields were mostly immigrants too so maybe no remorse at all)

[joshuatree]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Back o-t...there used to be an individual frequenting these boards who was vehemently against mainland companies disrupting the ways of life in Hawai`i.

Considering that companies such as Dole and DelMonte came in and ran pineapple operations in the Islands for so long (keeping in mind, as we all know, that pineapples are not indigenous to Hawai`i), how do you think this mindset would view this issue? Would they be glad to see a mainland operation leave the state, no matter the cost to the locals formerly employed by those companies? How would they balance mixed concerns such as these?

Just curious - does anyone care to post from this perspective (without diverting into discussions, intelligent as they may be, of minimum wage, lefty politics, or aquaculture?)

Okay, I'll take a stab at this. I presume this individual was kanaka maoli so I'll try to view from that angle. I think I be glad these mainland companies left because of the travesties they committed. The founder of Dole, his cousin was Sanford Dole, only president of the Hawaiian republic and also a participant in the overthrowing of the monarchy. These companies also brought in an influx of non-native immigrants which now end up dominating the population of the current state. So I would argue that I'm happy to see these companies go BUT they owe a lot in $$$ as payback.

[Miulang]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Back o-t...there used to be an individual frequenting these boards who was vehemently against mainland companies disrupting the ways of life in Hawai`i.

Considering that companies such as Dole and DelMonte came in and ran pineapple operations in the Islands for so long (keeping in mind, as we all know, that pineapples are not indigenous to Hawai`i), how do you think this mindset would view this issue? Would they be glad to see a mainland operation leave the state, no matter the cost to the locals formerly employed by those companies? How would they balance mixed concerns such as these?

Just curious - does anyone care to post from this perspective (without diverting into discussions, intelligent as they may be, of minimum wage, lefty politics, or aquaculture?)

Well, I believe that the majority of displaced Del Monte workers won't have to worry about unemployment for the foreseeable future if MLP does make good on its offer to harvest the 2007 pineapple crop that DelMonte was planning to abandon, and also commits to planting more pineapple for future crops.

Even though pineapple is not indigenous to Hawai'i, it does have a long association with the modern history of the 'aina (sugarcane has been grown in Hawai'i for a longer period of time). Many, many local people have relied on sugar and pineapple to support their families. But monoculture that is labor and natural-resource intensive is not necessarily a wise use of arable land, either. The pineapple and sugar baron families of Hawai'i (the Rices, the Baldwins, the Cookes, the Alexanders, the Doles, etc.) for a long time were very good to their workers. But when economic pressures started chewing into profits, these family-run companies had to diversify, sell out, or go out of existence.

MLP diversified into real estate (since they already owned so much land) as pineapple became unprofitable, but eventually, they will also run out of land to sell. They tried using their land for macadamia nut farms (at a time when the bottom of the market fell out) and coffee, but neither venture has produced the kind of profit that they need to be viable crops (for one thing, it takes a long time for a macadamia or coffee tree to produce fruit). MLP now makes some of its money by marketing "boutique" fresh pineapples that are shipped all over the world.

Maybe the time for Hawai'i having an agrarian economy is gone, but I still see a need for growing food crops to help sustain the islands' population. I would hate to see a time when all the pineapple and sugarcane fields get plowed under and their surfaces turned into parking garages or condominiums or single family housing tracts because, as an isolated island economy, Hawai'i is very susceptible to severe shortages if something should happen to its supply chain coming from CONUS. I truly believe what the kanaka maoli and other ancient people say about stewardship of resources is true: if you take care of your resources, they will take care of you.

Miulang

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

The unfortunate thing about sugar cane and ethanol production is that it's very water-intensive. So then you have the either/or question: do you want more sugar cane so you can have fuel for your car, or do you want water to survive?

Use gray water or fully treated sewage? Since it's not for human consumption, people won't be too picky about it. And it may even help refill the water table. But with Oahu's expanding population, it doesn't make much sense to grow it here.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

At the risk of prolonging the minimum wage argument, I think low wages is simply a matter of supply and demand. There's more people who don't qualify for anything but low wage jobs then there are jobs that need to be filled.

[808shooter]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Minimum wage laws are a problem for the least skilled workers. The reason for this is that the only edge they have in a competitive world is to undercut the wage of the more skilled worker. When employers are faced with rising wage costs, oftentimes the solution can be found in raising productivity and reducing the number of workers needed.

Minimum wages aren’t detrimental to unskilled workers, they are a safety net. The economic theory may be sound in the classroom but in reality, the Hawaii reality, the “minimum wage is bad” theory doesn’t quite hold up.

A minimum wage really only applies if the demand of unskilled workers is exceeded by the supply. In the case of demand exceeding supply, market forces will cause prevailing wages to exceed the minimum wage. This is the current case in Hawaii. Retail locations are paying $9.00 an hour today for clerks. Not sure what janitorial and maintenance companies are paying but with record low 3% unemployment, competition is fierce for employers.

As for the eternal quest of employers raising the productivity bar and cutting labor costs? That happens in boom and bust times. Doing more with less is the driving force of any growing economy. Increased productivity from our farms enabled by the Industrial Revolution enabled the transformation from an agrarian economy to an industrial one. Productivity gains.

Likewise, the onset of a global economy has allowed the US to become a service based, information economy by shifting those industrial manufacturing jobs overseas. Again all due to productivity gains.

In Hawaii the absence of an alternative labor pool (illegal aliens), the minimum wage provides a safety net to least qualified contributors to the economy. As a minimum, the minimum wage should be increased on an annual basis to keep pace with inflation. Maybe not annually but at least revisited every two-three years. The increase in inflation due to a minimum wage increase would be nominal. I would say major drivers would be the cost of energy and simple growth in demand for goods as the economy continues to grow. A very small % of our labor pool is comprised of minimum wage earners and their effect on inflation would be nominal.

Additionally, inflation is most prevalent when wages at the LOWEST end of the spectrum are rising. Inflation has a tendency to reduce buying power, and of course, you guessed it, the people at the low end of the wage spectrum are most hurt by this.

I don’t think this is accurate. Inflation is caused when the demand for goods exceeds the supply. In this case the artificial increase in a very small component in the cost of goods would hardly cause measurable inflation. And if the economy is not doing so good, it is the drop in discretionary income of middle and high wage earners that causes demand to fall. (I looked this stat up ->) Less than 1% of our workforce are minimum wage earners. They are an extremely small component of labor costs and would have minimal impact in the cost drivers of inflation.

Minimum wage laws are created with the best of intentions. But the reality of their effects in an economy are wildly misunderstood by those who honestly believe they are helping. The cumulative effect on GDP is like a dragster with it's parachute deployed the entire run. Economics is a fun science. Honest, it's a science. Similar to Urban Planning in that there is very little room for opinion or belief by those who would ignore facts. Funny how mathematics leaves very little room for "opinion".

I’d really like to debate you further on this. I am a fiscal conservative but recently have come to appreciate the fact that those who can afford it, should balance capitalism with social good.

[808shooter]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Maybe the time for Hawai'i having an agrarian economy is gone, but I still see a need for growing food crops to help sustain the islands' population. I would hate to see a time when all the pineapple and sugarcane fields get plowed under and their surfaces turned into parking garages or condominiums or single family housing tracts because, as an isolated island economy, Hawai'i is very susceptible to severe shortages if something should happen to its supply chain coming from CONUS. I truly believe what the kanaka maoli and other ancient people say about stewardship of resources is true: if you take care of your resources, they will take care of you.

you're right. in today's global economy, resources are utilized to their best and most efficient capabilities. In Hawaii, if the agricultural product is a commodity, then we cannot compete. The only reason why coffee does well is because of the branding that Kona coffee has earned. People are willing to pay a premium for our coffee because it tastes better.

I believe MLP has the same angle working with it's pineapple crops. But in the absence of "perceived value" global economic drivers will make the agricultural economy in Hawaii a thing of the past. The same goes for much of the agriculture in the US. As it is a strategic neccessity to preserve our ability to feed ourselves as a nation, the govt subsidizes our farmers.

I don't think the state government can affort subsidies, nor do I believe they would be justified.

That being said, agriculture could be saved in Hawai, we would just need to develop superior genetic varieties of local crops. Something many locals are against. Maybe we need to rethink our stance on the research done by a few local ag company startups.

[Bard]

Re: Del Monte shuts down Hawaii operations

Some very well thought out points there, 808shooter.

Doing more with less is the driving force of any growing economy. Increased productivity from our farms enabled by the Industrial Revolution enabled the transformation from an agrarian economy to an industrial one. Productivity gains.

I think this is a good example of where social good needs to be considered alongside pure market capitalism. Farms are under such pressure now to produce more and more that we get unintended side effects like pesticides making it into our food chain, rBST injected cows producing pus in their milk and having to be held up to be milked because they're so sick, e-coli in the spinach because of improper fertilizer handling, farmers being sued over patent infringement due to genetic crops blowing over, etc... it's all a matter of trying as hard as possible to cut costs and increase the productivity.

Of course "the market" is slowly taking care of that, with the explosive growth of organic foods. But it's kinda sad that the more poor you are, often the lower quality of food you can afford, which brings you not quite so good health, which (perhaps) makes one less likely to have the energy to improve one's situation.

And then you have people like my parents who just refuse to try new things. We went on a trip with them and they refused to try our organic milk. They had to buy their own gallon of non-organic milk.