Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

[Random]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

So, Amati, how do I -- a private citizen and owner of my own home wireless network -- keep a log of not only myself but my tenants (a family of four children) in an adjoining rental unit?

[Vanguard]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

As noble as the intentions are, I have no doubt that the benefits of such a bill will eventually extend to the private sector -- just like Eminent Domain. RIAA and MPAA will be pleased!

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Really, I'm perplexed by your acceptance of child porn.

Acceptance? Not at all. But let's be realistic. As long as there are cameras and any degree of personal freedom, there will be child porn - if even one image. That's not to say I won't turn in someone as soon as I become aware of what they are doing. I won't tolerate it, but at the same time I won't trample everyone's freedom to rid the world of it.

Going back to the earlier quote:

“Of the nearly 600,000 images of graphic child pornography found online and reported to law enforcement officials, only 2,100 of these children have been identified and rescued,”

What they are trying to do is get us to subtract 2,100 from 600,000 and recoil in horror. The problem is the numbers are images and children. Apples and oranges. There's no way of knowing what those numbers represent or how to relate them. It could represent every child. (286 computers each with the same 2,100 photos.) We're simply not told.

Where else are private individuals expected to document anything to that detail? Oh, we collect W-2 forms to file taxes. That's nowhere near the requirement of keeping a log of all use of our WAP. I'd be more supportive if this struck a better balance between the burden and the benefit.

[Amati]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

600,000 images (no word on how many are duplicates). So how many children are involved?
Yup. Emotional argument.

OK, let's say 1/2 are duplicates. 300,000 images. Is that lower number of children victims acceptible to you?
Let's say 9 out of 10 are duplicates. 60,000 images. Is that number of children victims OK with you?
What is your cutoff point to where the number of children would be "enough" to cause you concern?
Really, I'm perplexed by your acceptance of child porn.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Are you referring to laws against "DUI" and "smoking in workplaces" as unnecessary?

No, I'm pointing out that many people, including children, die in car accidents. And yet cars are still legal. Somewhere we've drawn the line and decided that allowing cars is worth a few deaths. Think of all the ways that children die. For example swimming pools. And yet we allow families with children to have swimming pools.

Is requiring everyone with a wireless router to keep a log up there with banning cars and swimming pools? I think so. It won't fly.

Requiring commercial ISPs to keep track, may fly. Requiring new WAPs to store logs automatically may also fly. But the law as currently drafted - snowball in a hot place.

"Emotional argument", or a reality ... 600,000 child porn pics! OMG

600,000 images (no word on how many are duplicates). So how many children are involved?

Yup. Emotional argument.

[Amati]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

An emotional augment frequently used. But life is rarely that simple. We trade lives for convenience or pleasure all the time. Automobiles, cigarettes, etc.

Are you referring to laws against "DUI" and "smoking in workplaces" as unnecessary? The Wi-Fi log bill is to offer a protection, like DUI laws offer a protection and smoking laws offer a protection [addressing your examples].

"Emotional argument", or a reality ... 600,000 child porn pics! OMG

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Perhaps the thought is that even just ONE CHILD is rescued that it is worth it.

An emotional augment frequently used. But life is rarely that simple. We trade lives for convenience or pleasure all the time. Automobiles, cigarettes, etc.

[Amati]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

And how many of them do thy think are inside of the country? If they enact the law, I'm sure the guilty parties will simply use offshore re-directs. The dead ends will still be there.

Perhaps the thought is that even just ONE CHILD is rescued that it is worth it.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

“Of the nearly 600,000 images of graphic child pornography found online and reported to law enforcement officials, only 2,100 of these children have been identified and rescued,” Rep. Smith said in a statement. “Federal, state and local law enforcement officials have reached a digital dead end in their battle against the online sexual exploitation of children.” "

And how many of them do thy think are inside of the country? If they enact the law, I'm sure the guilty parties will simply use offshore re-directs. The dead ends will still be there.

[Amati]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

I met that guy John Cornyn while I was visiting some wounded soldiers at Walter Reed hospital in DC.

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/02/22...-to-two-years/

"The Internet SAFETY (Internet Stopping Adults Facilitating the Exploitation of Today’s Youth Act) Act, introduced by Rep. Lamar Smith and Sen. John Cornyn, threw out some numbers that are quite startling.

“Of the nearly 600,000 images of graphic child pornography found online and reported to law enforcement officials, only 2,100 of these children have been identified and rescued,” Rep. Smith said in a statement. “Federal, state and local law enforcement officials have reached a digital dead end in their battle against the online sexual exploitation of children.” "

[StinkyTheGrump]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Wow, this is pretty huge. The identities of users would have to be logged according to the wording. That means no more anonymous public access to wifi hotspots. I guess you would have to show an ID and then get a temp password to get internet access at starbucks etc. Of course as with all things electronic, the bad guys will stay a step or two ahead of the law and will continue to access the internet anonymously with impunity. I met that guy John Cornyn while I was visiting some wounded soldiers at Walter Reed hospital in DC. I mainly remember thinking that he was dressed impeccably; not a hair out of place, suit perfectly pressed, gold cufflinks/tie clip/rings, shiny shoes. Other than that, he didn't really make much of an impression on me.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Hopefully, they omit the words "home user" from both resolutions. It's one thing to have Big Brother watching us, it's another being forced to become a Big Brother.

What they might try to do is require that all new hotspots have built-in logging. That way the police can extract the log from the unit without forcing the owner to keep logs.

I just can't see them burdening the average AP owner with that kind of requirement.

Frankly, I think it's dumb. Many cards can change their MAC address, so I'm not sure how big a help those logs will be once the bad guys kick their game up a level. I'm not sure just what they expect to gain from those logs.

[Random]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

First, wait and see if this passes. I can see this as applying to commercial use. But color me skeptical that it will pass in a shape that requires every owner to keep a log.

Hopefully, they omit the words "home user" from both resolutions. It's one thing to have Big Brother watching us, it's another being forced to become a Big Brother (da niele kine, not da volunteering to help one kid).

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Hypothetically speaking, how do I keep a log?

First, wait and see if this passes. I can see this as applying to commercial use. But color me skeptical that it will pass in a shape that requires every owner to keep a log.

[vradovic]

Re: Bill proposes ISPs, Wi-Fi keep logs for police

Hello random,

Mebie u first need to tell us wich WiFI acess point do u have?.


Regards,
Vladimir