Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

No, actually, ongre was correct. Slavery in the U.S. was abolished by the 13th Amendment, the first of the Reconstruction Amendments. President Lincoln recognized that the Emancipation Proclamation would have to be followed quickly by a constitutional amendment in order to guarantee the abolishment of slavery.

What practical effect would the 13th amendment have had on the rebelling Confederate states had the Civil War not been fought to bring the seceding states back into the union? They were all set to have their own government and system of laws.

Slavery was THE one issue in this country's history that couldn't be settled or enforced by an act of Congress, an executive order from the President, or a decision by the Supreme Court.

Am I being nit-picky by saying all this? Maybe. But having watch the movie Glory again recently, I just couldn't stomach the idea that the diabolical institution of slavery was single-handedly extinguished by some politicians/judges sitting in their comfy offices in Washington DC, pushing papers. If you ask me, the men who did the real work, the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice, are those who truly deserve the credit. And that sacrifice is something that should never, EVER, be forgotten.

But that's just my opinion.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

What practical effect would the 13th amendment have had on the rebelling Confederate states had the Civil War not been fought to bring the seceding states back into the union? They were all set to have their own government and system of laws.

Irrelevant point. Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox on April 9, 1865. The Thirteenth Amendment was adopted on December 6, 1865.

While slavery was a key issue of the Civil War (and the wider argument of "states' rights"), the war was over when slavery was legally abolished by legislative action - just as ongre stated.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Irrelevant point. Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox on April 9, 1865. The Thirteenth Amendment was adopted on December 6, 1865.

Okey-dokey, Leo. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Over 300,000 Union soldiers dying and many thousands more losing limbs in order for the 13th amendment to have any practical effect remains most relevant in my mind.

[TuNnL]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Irrelevant point ... While slavery was a key issue of the Civil War (and the wider argument of "states' rights"), the war was over when slavery was legally abolished by legislative action - just as ongre stated.

You are correct from a literal standpoint, but I don’t think Frankie means to be literal in this instance. I think most of us would agree that by simplifying the abolishment of slavery to a piece of paper signed by a bunch of politicians, you trivialize the value and sacrifice made by the soldiers who fought and died to defend their principles.

Is it technically accurate that soldiers found trace elements of chemicals that could be used to make dangerous weapons (a fact timkona so often likes to drill into the rest of us) after major hostilities ended in Iraq? Yes, technically they did. Is the amount they found tantamount to what most of the civilized world would consider WMD (weapons of mass destruction)? On a practical basis, no. And many of us will continue fighting to ensure that history isn’t re-written by the hawks and warmongerers among us. George W. Bush IS a criminal and should be held accountable for his misdeeds. Sadly, Dennis Kucinich is the only politician who seems to give a rat’s @ss about that. Will we fight a war to make things right? No. And that is the difference. That is the significance of the Civil War.

The piece of paper is just a formality recognizing the result.

[/offtopic]

[Kalalau]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

The sick way American politics works is this--a party, say just for example, the Republicans, throw out an issue that they know will enrage voters, to get their supporters to the polls. It can be an issue like for example gay marriage, civil unions, abortion, whatever. Once they are in power that party will do its REAL agenda which in the case of the Republicans meant deregulating Wall Street so billions of dollars could be stolen. Check the history of the Republican Party all the way back to Grant, its REAL agenda has ALWAYS been facilitating huge rip off scams. Grant let campaign contributors corner the gold supply and drive the country into the Panic of 1873. Eisenhower was fairly decent but did have the CIA overthrow Mossadegh in Iran for British Petroleum and give rise to the whole Islamic extremist thing--Khomeini was a direct result and its only gotten worse from there. Coolidge and Harding let Wall Street explode in speculation and when that all collapsed it touched off the Great Depression. Railroad finance scandals in the 19th century. On and on and on and on. The pose of moral rectitude on matters like gay marriage or civil unions is only a pose to sucker in the victims. Now they are after pension funds. They wanted to turn the Social Security and Medicare trust funds over to their good pals on Wall Street and they still might if the 2010 elections put Republicans in control again. Please please please people, care about the issues that actually effect your lives, not the BS red meat so called "issues" Republicans throw out as bait so they can steal you blind.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

You are correct from a literal standpoint, but I don’t think Frankie means to be literal in this instance. I think most of us would agree that by simplifying the abolishment of slavery to a piece of paper signed by a bunch of politicians, you trivialize the value and sacrifice made by the soldiers who fought and died to defend their principles.

You got it exactly right, TuNnL. I was being literal in relation to ongre's post, and while I suspected FM was being less so, he made no statement of that.

Any time you go down the path FM took, one can go all over the place with your points, however. One could also say that the battle for civil rights for racial minorities was also accomplished through means ranging from peaceful marches to violent riots, that there were many heroes of that "battle" who were not politicians, from Medgar Evers to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., to Emmett Till to Jimmie Lee Jackson to hundreds or even thousands of others. Yet being literal, it was the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that was the turning point.

Ongre's argument, conveniently ignored by FM and yourself, was that these major historical issues were (regardless of what it took to reach that point) eventually resolved by legislative action and not by popular vote.

For you and FM to say that I am somehow cheapening the sacrifices made by citizens who gave their lives in these battles (a point you created in your own minds, for I never made any such statements) is a comparable argument to those who say anyone who can grasp why Islamic terrorists wish to target America must therefore "hate democracy." Severely stretching a point to question the character of someone who disagrees is the resort of someone with a weakened argument.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Why is it always so shocking for anybody on HT when they agree with me on something??

Geeeesssszzzzhhhhh, I'm not really that bad.


Am I?

Well, in your own words ...
http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showpos...06&postcount=8

[AlohaKine]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

My guess is the gay community will get civil unions sooner or later. People in power such as our Governor come and go so since the bill supporters are very active about getting it and don't give up, I think it's just a matter of time.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

You are correct from a literal standpoint, but I don’t think Frankie means to be literal in this instance. I think most of us would agree that by simplifying the abolishment of slavery to a piece of paper signed by a bunch of politicians, you trivialize the value and sacrifice made by the soldiers who fought and died to defend their principles.

Is it technically accurate that soldiers found trace elements of chemicals that could be used to make dangerous weapons (a fact timkona so often likes to drill into the rest of us) after major hostilities ended in Iraq? Yes, technically they did. Is the amount they found tantamount to what most of the civilized world would consider WMD (weapons of mass destruction)? On a practical basis, no.

Will we fight a war to make things right? No. And that is the difference. That is the significance of the Civil War.

Bingo! Unlike the battle for women's suffrage, civil rights for ethnic minorities, and the correction of every other social injustice/inequity, the process to ending slavery once and for all was the one domestic issue in this country that had to be settled with warfare, not govt. legislation. Of what good would a constitutional amendment have been to a slave if the Confederate states weren't compelled to be brought back into the Union through arms. Fine good that piece of paper would have done to someone toiling their life away in bondage as a cotton picker were it not for the Civil War.

[sansei]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

hi,i spoke with my mom's youngest sis and she inquired to me when she wondered about the civil union's bill that was veto'ed and she shared with me that if the civil union's bill was passed,my aunt shared that the childern will be confused is that the child would wonder who's the mom and no father.

this is a reason she would oppose civil union's and she know's sacred marriage is in her parent's time,they would never have civil union's only i myself realize today is different from yesteryear only myself and my aunt somewhat believe in yesteryear and where she reside's,they have a simliar situation only worse.

she shared with me that if the people who want's the civil union's to pass,she believe's that it will be veto'ed or voted against so i thought to share this with you.

well thank's for your time

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

This nicely sums up a lot of people, sansei:

... only myself and my aunt somewhat believe in yesteryear and where she reside's ...

Residing in yesteryear.

[Kalalau]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

The red meat issue in the coming election is obviously not going to be gay marriage, its going to be Mexicans. Look how irrational--insane it all is, look how manufactured. Yeah right Anglos really want to take all those jobs the illegals have--making up beds at the Holiday Inn, digging trenches in El Centro in the summertime, picking lettuce in the Imperial Valley, washing dishes in El Segundo, mowing lawns from Phoenix to Bangor. Its an ideal "issue" just like abortion, its something you can't "solve", it will always be there and always irritating people so they will vote in Republicans who can't do anything about it because nobody can, and then that real agenda gets worked on, more Wall St. deregulation, maybe turn your pension fund or your state pension fund over to some slick money manager who can cash in.

Gay marriage actually turned out to be the "issue" that won the 2004 election for bush, if he actually did win it and thats subject to review of fraudulent voting machines. In Ohio Republican agents put notes on the windows of cars parked within a mile of churches on Sundays saying that Kerey was going to legalize gay marriage. And now they are all unemployed and their cities are going bankrupt and unemployment benefits have been stopped so the country will go into a Depression in time for the 2010 and 2012 elections just for political advantage.

Not a good idea. Its easy to get into a Depression and extremely difficult to get out of one, plus if you destabalize things enough you actually could come up with another Hitler, somebody who would take the whole system to dust. So the bottom line is people have to vote intelligently, whatever the red meat issue is, its just bait, thats all, you have to think of what your own real best interests are and which party or candidates give you the best chance of having them advanced. That will NOT be the party that is deliberately trying to cause another Depression and deregulate Wall St. again.

[sansei]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

hi,i recently returned from my dr's office and we spoke of when gov lingle veto'ed the civil union's bill and he shared with me that if gov lingle did not veto it,the childern who live's with same gender parent's wouldnt be able to say who's my mom and if the same gender partner weather the child would call that person mom or dad? this is why my dr shared this with me.


another reason is if someone running for gov,not abercrombie,other's who are running may be a better governor who'd probably let it stay veto'ed.

well thank's for your time

[Kaonohi]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

hi,i recently returned from my dr's office and we spoke of when gov lingle veto'ed the civil union's bill and he shared with me that if gov lingle did not veto it,the childern who live's with same gender parent's wouldnt be able to say who's my mom and if the same gender partner weather the child would call that person mom or dad? this is why my dr shared this with me.

The most well- balanced kid in my son's class had two mothers. He called them both "Mom." He's now a college honor student. He had no problem that he was raised by two women who slept in the same bedroom, he just said, "They are my moms."

He was a great kid and you would be surprised to know who his parents (mothers) were. One was a well-known community figure.

Goes to show: Don't make assumptions outside of your knowledge base.

\K*

[sansei]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

hi,im not being unreasonable,only since my aunt,my mom's youngest sis and my eldest sis and myself and since i was raised,i was always taught to believe in sacred marriage and that sacred marriage was the only way between one gentleman and one lady always married.

since my two sis's time back in the 70's when at the time they were both married,they were taught as i have to believe in sacred marriage and nothing other than sacred marriage.imoho,it still should be voted for and not for a lawmaker to sign it and make it law. that's unreasonable.

well thank's for your time