How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Yet you still have not addressed my question: by what proof can you claim that the "anti-DP" side is doing more of a "snow job" than the "pro-DP" side?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

http://http://news.blogs.cnn.com/201...r-case/?hpt=T2

any comments?

OK, this is what I got for the research"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37711169/C...al-Part-1-of-5

I will go over the case one more time, but so far, as I see it, the claim of innocence bogus. At best, Willingham, if alive and given a new trial, might have ended in an acquittal depending on what the jury believed, but by no means an acquittal would mean "innocence" in this case.

The problem here, is the evidence or method of the deaths was a fire, which leaves very little evidence if any at all. Expert testimony declares that the fire started in three different places. IF that is true, then the fire was no accident as the petition claims it might have been.

As far as the jailhouse snitch, I am opposed to the use of a fellow inmate's testimony in order to convict, but I am not opposed to using a fellow inmate's testimony in order to acquit or exonerate..

There was conflicting testimony on whether Willinham attempted to re-enter the home to save the children. Questionable, would be how did he get out of the home to begin with? If I was awakened by a fire in my house, the FIRST thing I would do is try to ensure that my family was safe.

Again, I will look over the transcripts of the trial and see if I can find anything either way.

[anapuni808]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

are you a criminal attorney? if you are, then your pro-bono tme spent "researching" these cases is appreciated. If not, we can't really take your opinions as any more than that - your opinion.

Really, unless you have HAD a fire in your home and DID respond in that manner - you don't know how you would react. You can't judge others based on what you THINK you would do in the same situation until you have been confronted by it.

I posted that link (thanks to Leo) to stimulate discussion between those who have talked about possibly innocent people being executed. I do know the difference between "acquitted" and "found innocent". But, when it comes to a get out of jail card -- either one works. However, someone who has been executed doesn't have that chance. When a jury returns a verdict of "not guilty" it means just that. They don't come back and say "acquitted" or not. The response from the jury is guilty or not guilty.

Now I'm going back to my quiet little corner.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Anapuni,
No, I am not an attorney at all, but I have always been interested in crimes and law enforcement. I guess some of it rubbed off on my three kids, as all of them are in some sort of law enforcement. My oldest is a police officer, my middle kid is a crime scene investigator, and my youngest is in law school right now, but it seems that he is not interested in criminal law at this time.

Being that I grew up in Kalihi when it was a real rough area, I grew up with a lot of guys who spent some time in prison. Fortunately, I did not get into crime as far as a participant except for a small amount of gambling at the chicken fights.

I like the subjects that are controversial. Among them would be capital punishment, abortion, and guns, so I research them.

The people who got me into capital punishment was Shirley Dicks and Tom Lawrence. Shirley was the mother of a death row inmate, Jeffrey Dicks, and Tom Lawrence was the nephew of the victims of Daryll Mease in Missouri, so I did communicate with both sides of the fence. The two do not appear on the WEB anymore as far as I know, but Shirley wrote a couple of books.

I also had a friend who was on Death Row in Florida. He murdered his family in Florida, and fled to Hawaii, and then turned himself in when he showed up on America's most wanted.... I don't know if he was executed or not, as I lost track of him.

By trade, I have no job that is related to law or law enforcement at all.
Nobu

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One doesn't have to be an attorney (or even in the law field for that matter) to research case studies and expand knowledge on a topic of interest. But do enough research (and in Nobu's case, with primary sources!), a measly opinion can be upgraded to a stance. This isn't some run of the mill viewing of a website or quoting some schmuck's blog.

Stating enough facts can back up a stance. Disagreeing with or "not liking" the facts is someone's measly opinion.

Two groups of people most guilty of throwing their opinions on people are politicians and celebrities, and unfortunately, most of the population listens to them. I'm quite envious of some of the conversations and experiences Nobu had with the people who actually lived those events.

An opinion is certainly nice to have, otherwise everyone would have to submit a disclaimer explaining what knowledge or credentials one would have on the subject matter before they are deemed worthy enough to speak about it.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One doesn't have to be an attorney (or even in the law field for that matter) to research case studies and expand knowledge on a topic of interest. But do enough research (and in Nobu's case, with primary sources!), a measly opinion can be upgraded to a stance.

Scientific research requires extensive education and experience in a specific field. Otherwise it is idle curiosity and has no merit other than opinion. A "stance" supported by the casual gathering of information does not equal unassailable facts or logic.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

"Scientific research" was not mentioned. In this case, at least research was done, using experiences, analyzing facts, and attempting to produce something logical out of it. This 'opinion' certainly has more value, because at least an effort was made to seek it rather than sit here and dismiss people's comments as mere opinions.

As mentioned earlier, his initial view changed once new information was brought to light.

Quantifying a time and an amount of education to be a subject matter expert is not true in all cases. But devoting a good share of it can certainly make one more knowledgeable on the subject matter than those who haven't.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

One doesn't have to be an attorney (or even in the law field for that matter) to research case studies and expand knowledge on a topic of interest. But do enough research (and in Nobu's case, with primary sources!), a measly opinion can be upgraded to a stance. This isn't some run of the mill viewing of a website or quoting some schmuck's blog.

Stating enough facts can back up a stance. Disagreeing with or "not liking" the facts is someone's measly opinion.

Two groups of people most guilty of throwing their opinions on people are politicians and celebrities, and unfortunately, most of the population listens to them. I'm quite envious of some of the conversations and experiences Nobu had with the people who actually lived those events.

An opinion is certainly nice to have, otherwise everyone would have to submit a disclaimer explaining what knowledge or credentials one would have on the subject matter before they are deemed worthy enough to speak about it.

Hi BJD,
I recollected another name. Fred Romano of Maryland, who lost his sister to a murder. The culprit was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death, and executed by the State of Maryland. This is his case.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...6557087.column

Fred and his wife Vicki waited many years before the execution of Oken, and he witnessed the execution. I almost went there to give him moral support, but that year, it cost over $2000.00 for a round trip ticket from Kauai to Baltimore Md, and I was worried about a last minute stay, so I elected not to go. I would not have been able to witness the execution anyway.

After the execution of Oken, Fred and Vicki were getting phone calls and emails threatening them and their children. Eventually, they disappeared from the WEB.

Fred told me via phone call, that if you could see the faces of the family and friends of Oken, before, during, and after the execution, that itself would have been a deterrent to committing murder.

There are more, but I have been away from capital punishment debates for quite a while. I will have to post these cases as I remember them.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Scientific research requires extensive education and experience in a specific field. Otherwise it is idle curiosity and has no merit other than opinion. A "stance" supported by the casual gathering of information does not equal unassailable facts or logic.

I disagree. I don't know if you watch "The Forensic Files" on TRU TV, but there was one case, where the wife of a convicted murderer, with no forensic education whatsoever, single handedly collected evidence to clear her husband of the crime. Not only that, she found the guilty person, who was already in prison and matched his DNA to the crime.

She got her "education" from watching "The Forensic Files".

I get my knowledge from a friend here on Kauai, who is a forensic pathologist, (retired) ... My daughter, who is a criminalist specializing in DNA, and of course, the Forensic Files on TRU TV.

[anapuni808]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

(never mind)

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

My daughter, who is a criminalist specializing in DNA, and of course, the Forensic Files on TRU TV.

My daughter is a Doctor of Psychology and I watch Doctor Phil on TV. Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night too. Well I guess I can now hang out my shingle as a certified Psychologist!

As a self trained "psychologist". I have some opinions no, irrefutable determinations about posters on HT.

Maauli Matapule (that be Tongan witch doctor who practice bush medicine)

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

My daughter is a Doctor of Psychology and I watch Doctor Phil on TV. Oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night too. Well I guess I can now hang out my shingle as a certified Psychologist!

As a self trained "psychologist". I have some opinions no, irrefutable determinations about posters on HT.

Maauli Matapule (that be Tongan witch doctor who practice bush medicine)

Psychology was also one of my interests when I was younger. I did read a lot of books on the subject, and I do have a personal friend who is a psychologist, and a couple of customers who are psychiatrists. Every now and then, when I see them, I may ask them a question or two about their profession, but I always remember, if I was a ditch digger, I would not expect them to ask me to dig a ditch for them.

Here on Kauai, the people tend to mix with nearly all professions and incomes. In my kid's Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts organizations, we had the children of doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers, engineers, and laborers.

Of course my children are all adults now, but I am still friends with their parents in most cases. I ask my daughter about things in her profession often, because I feel I am entitled to ask being that I paid for a lot of her education.

Of course, she is very busy, as she works for the Los Angeles County, which has about 800 murders annually.

I get your point, that our kids education does not mean we have the same credentials. I hope you get mine, that they can provide you with a lot of information from their education.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

There is some standing rule from a supreme ct case several years ago, anti-death penalty people must be excluded from the jury pool on capital cases. The idea is to not bias the jury against death. Well...you of course end up with juries biased in favor of death. Duh. Also fairly often with people less likely to give a defendant the presumption of innocence that our system requires; if the prosecution doesn't prove its case a jury is bound to find a defendant not guilty; he or she walks. We like the presumption of innocence. I live within sight of Mexico where there is no presumption of innocence in law, its a problem as simple and basic as that that leads to so much corruption in Mexican and Latin American police forces, and therefore to the whole economy and politics as well.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

There is some standing rule from a supreme ct case several years ago, anti-death penalty people must be excluded from the jury pool on capital cases. The idea is to not bias the jury against death. Well...you of course end up with juries biased in favor of death. Duh. Also fairly often with people less likely to give a defendant the presumption of innocence that our system requires; if the prosecution doesn't prove its case a jury is bound to find a defendant not guilty; he or she walks. We like the presumption of innocence. I live within sight of Mexico where there is no presumption of innocence in law, its a problem as simple and basic as that that leads to so much corruption in Mexican and Latin American police forces, and therefore to the whole economy and politics as well.

Actually no. To qualify to serve on a Death Penalty Jury, they do not ask you wether or not you are anti capital punishment. They ask you if in a questionaire these questions:

********************

a. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for all crimes involving
intentional and premeditated murder.”
b. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for most crimes involving
intentional and premeditated murder and I could return a verdict which assessed
the death penalty in a proper case.”
c. “I believe that the death penalty is appropriate for some intentional and
premeditated murders and I could return a verdict which assessed the death
penalty.”
d. “Although I do not believe that the death penalty ever ought to be used, as long
as the law provides for it, I could assess it, under the proper set of circumstances.”
e. “I could never, regardless of the facts and circumstances of the intentional and

premeditated murder, return a verdict which assessed the death penalty.”

Source: http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lo...e/dpen0041.pdf

Now, if you answer is "e", of course you could never be elected for a DP jury because of your prejudice against capital punishment.

If you answer "d", says that you are basically opposed to capital punishment but you can assess it.

It is definite that if you selected "e", you will be dismissed from a capital trial jury.

It is likely, but not definite that if you selected "a" or "d", you will also be dismissed from that jury.

In the case of one of the 9-11 attack planners, who was found guilty, the jury was divided 11-1 in favor of a death sentence. That one on the jury to me, lied under oath.

[Kaonohi]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Although a death penalty may seem a suitable deterrant, and may seem like justice in some cases, I do not believe in it.

Death is preferable to life in prison for offenders (I know one).
Death is a cheap 'out' for cash-strapped governments.
Death is irreversible, in cases where new evidence comes to light.

If we are to impose punishments upon offenders, we should be prepared to pay the price.

Death, unless in the hands of God (or whatever you believe), is simply murder under a different name.