How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Nobunaga]

Kaonohi> Most of your comments I considered baiting. It seems obvious you know no one on death row nor anyone serving a life sentence.

Nobu> If you consider my comments baiting, perhaps you should debate with me. Contrary to your wild imagination, I personally knew someone who was serving a Life WithOut Parole Sentence right here in Hawaii, and I also personally knew a person on Death Row in Florida, but I lost track of him.

I also communicated with parents of Death Row inmates, and murder victim survivors. I did not make my opinion on capital punishment out of the blue. I was once opposed to it like you are. I once thought those who were pro capital punishment were uneducated. I learned that it is the other way around. Did you know that Life WithOut Parole (LWOP) here in Hawaii has no definitive meaning??? After 20 years of incarceration serving a LWOP sentence, a convict might be released. If you don't believe me, look it up.

Kaonohi> Lifers are always hoping for release or death, with release primary except for some who cannot readjust to civilian life.

Nobu> Contrary to your strange belief, most people on Death Row would gladly have their sentences commuted to LWOP. If they would prefer to die, you would see more volunteers dropping all of their appeals to be executed sooner. You don't see that, because they do not want to die, and they would rather live incarcerated.

Kaonohi> Gandhi said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Nobu> Sure! But Gandi is not in law enforcement.

Kaonohi> Granted, we cannot let murderers run free; should we instead look for efficient ways at eliminating our responsibility?

Nobu> Unfortunately, we do let murderers run free. The recidivism rate of murderers who are released from prison is about 6 percent. You may look that up in the US Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Kaonohi> It is better that 100 murderers spend their life in prison than one innocent person get murdered by the government.

Nobu> I agree. But as I pointed out to you, LWOP here in Hawaii does not have a definitive meaning. Actually, it is better to kill one innocent person than to let 100 convicted murderers to go free simply on the recidivism statistic of SIX PERCENT that I mentioned.

Kaonohi> "Murder: The crime of unlawfully killing a person."

Nobu> Correct. Therefore, being that executions are not unlawful, an execution by the state is never murder. You should not call an execution "murder". However, what would be correct, is that an execution is a cold blooded, premeditated legal homicide of a murderer. I hope you can remember, I was once opposed to capital punishment as much as you are, and probably more.

Kaonohi> Depends on who or what you consider as the arbiter of lawful.

Nobu> That is very simple. Go to the penal codes for the state. It clearly defines "murder"

Kaonohi> You and I are miles apart. You are a killer, by default.

Nobu> Yes, we are miles apart. However, you also, are a killer by default. Any murderer who commits murder after being convicted should be your responsibility. At least, the killings I support are of those who are convicted of murder, which violating an innocent person's right to live.

Capital punishment for political leaders--if it was right to execute Tojo and members of his war cabinet in Japan, and many German officials for illegal war activities after WW2, shouldn't some form of justice be exacted against American officials responsible for the Vietnam carnage and the murders of up to a million Iraqis? Not necessarily the death penalty, but some form of punishment. We are not talking about mere failure here, failure happens, we are talking about deliberate evil intent in starting a war. In the case of Vietnam, it is known that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was provoked in order to defraud the Congress into giving Johnson war powers. Defrauding the Congress is a big felony. Count up to 3 million deaths resulting from that fraud. The lies of bush leading up to his Iraq war are well documented. Maybe it was a mistake to set the precedent of trying and exacting justice against WW2 leaders, but the precedent is there. It is not enough to make an honest mistake, or to fail, or to lose, there must be actual malicious evil intent. How can anyone deny that that existed in American leadership during the Vietnam War (that Gulf of Tonkin fraud for starts) and the lies about wmds in Iraq. Of course our leaders will not be punished. If Hitler had won, he wouldn't have been punished, either. It all just goes to show that the concept of justice, legal justice, is ultimately just bs. Taking the Presidential oath of office gives you license to murder millions, you will never be called to answer or even explain. Justice exacted against leaders of the Vietnam and Iraq wars would serve an incredibly valuable lesson for future leaders, because for now, they take the oath of office knowing they are 100% immune from prosecution or even investigation of their war crimes, they are free to attack anybody they want. History proves it.

Hi Kalalau,
I think there is a difference between war and peace when it comes to crime. When a government is defeated, or when a coup is defeated many times, the leaders and the mercenaries are executed. The crime is only being on the losing side.
Nobu

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The crime is only being on the losing side.

So the Nazis, Imperialist Japanese, and Saddam Hussein committed no crimes other than being on the losing side? Ridiculous! As far as being on the "winning" side and not being punished, where are Bush/Cheney's WMDs that prompted our entry into Iraq? It was pure fabrication.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

So the Nazis, Imperialist Japanese, and Saddam Hussein committed no crimes other than being on the losing side? Ridiculous! As far as being on the "winning" side and not being punished, where are Bush/Cheney's WMDs that prompted our entry into Iraq? It was pure fabrication.

Actually, during the times of war, especially the Nazis, Japanese, and Saddam Hussein, the soldiers who carried out the murders were just doing their jobs, and following orders. The soldier's leaders should bear the responsibility of the murders.

When the USA bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the targets were industrial, but still mostly civilian. Should we hold those who flew the B29 that dropped the bomb responsible for murder? I say no... In Vietnam, particularly the Mylie massacre, do we hold the soldiers who followed orders, killed civilians, and burnt homes? Or do we hold Calley and Medina responsible only? Or, should we hold the then President LB Johnson responsible?

I think you totally missed the point I made. In Africa, after a side in a revolution lost, all of the hired mercenaries the could find were executed. Their only crime was being on the losing side. They fought as a job, and being on the losing side was their misfortune.

During World War II, both sides intentionally bombed civilian targets. Was that a crime? It was war, and I see it differently.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Actually, during the times of war, especially the Nazis, Japanese, and Saddam Hussein, the soldiers who carried out the murders were just doing their jobs, and following orders. The soldier's leaders should bear the responsibility of the murders.

That defense did not work Nuremburg Trials. The tribunal ruled that each would be held responsible for their presonal actions. "I was only following orders" was not accepted as a defense. The same for the Imperialist Japanese. You are attempting to re-write and sanitize history and your role in Viet Nam. I won't work with me. We are each responsible for our personal actions. Don't you have the cajones to say, "No, this isn't right. I'm not going to do it." Or will you quietly acquiesce and say it was somebody else's responsibility for your actions?

When the USA bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the targets were industrial, but still mostly civilian. Should we hold those who flew the B29 that dropped the bomb responsible for murder? I say no... In Vietnam, particularly the Mylie massacre, do we hold the soldiers who followed orders, killed civilians, and burnt homes? Or do we hold Calley and Medina responsible only? Or, should we hold the then President LB Johnson responsible?

Yes, I say that anyone who participated is culpable. Each of us will be held accountable and have to answer for the actions we take. Anything else is a cop out. Too many in America today believe as you do. It is always someone else's fault/responsibility/blame. Stand up, be a man, take personal responsibility!

I think you totally missed the point I made. In Africa, after a side in a revolution lost, all of the hired mercenaries the could find were executed. Their only crime was being on the losing side.

Well that and murder, rape, robbery, and a few other nefarious deeds.

During World War II, both sides intentionally bombed civilian targets. Was that a crime? It was war, and I see it differently.

You claim to be well read, but you obviously haven't read about bombing strategy in WWII. Bomber Harris was the head of British air command. His philosophy was to randomly bomb civilian targets with no military objective at night. He wanted to take the war directly to the German people, to break their will. Churchill approved of this strategy because of the German Blitzkrieg of London. The US air command on the other hand believed in strategic bombing of military targets during the daylight hours to increase accurancy. Germany purposely located miltary installations in the midst of residential districts to use German civilians as shields. Because of the proximity of targets to civilian areas and the notoriously poor accuracy of US bombsites (prior to the deployment of the Norden bombsite) there was a lot of collateral damage to civilian areas by US bombers (some of it intentional). Eisenhower was opposed to bombing populated areas. However, as the war wore on (and the outcry in the US over substantial loss of bombers during daylight raids, the US did finally capitulate to the British demands, and started limited bombing of civilian areas with no military value toward the end of the war. The most famous of these was the combined British/American fire bombing of Dresden with no military value other than revenge.

Research and interviews by professionals after the war, determined that bombing of civilian targets did little to diminsh the resolve of Germans. In fact, it increased their resolve by proving how vile (in their opinion) the Allies were. It was also determined that the US strategy of bombing military targets like ball bearing factories and weapons manufacturing plants had little affect also. The strategy that finally brought the war to an end was bombing oil refineries and means of mass transportation - the railroads. Destruction of these two targets finally curtailed the Germans ability to wage war.

The analysis of bombing strategy above is not my opinion but the work of highly skilled and trained researchers.

Hitler and the Nazis were maniacal killers. They enjoyed firing squads and death penalties. The Japanese enjoyed beheading their prisoners. Those that were brought to trial and executed were guilty of war crimes. Many more Nazis and Japanese who should have been held accountable were never required to answer for their deeds. It is well documented that war crime atrocities were also committed by allied commanders and troops. They never had to answer for their deeds either.

It is my solemn oath to myself, that I will not stand idly by and watch America repeat any of the historical mistakes made by the US and other nations in he past. I am ready to stake my life on that non-violent oath. And I don't own any guns either.

I know this isn't going to soften your heart or change your mind, because only you can do that. But I'm going to make my stand very clear, so you know exactly where I'm coming from and that I am not going to be seduced by any attempt to re-write history or pass responsibility to someone else.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

A brief foray into Vietnam War history...a professional historian researched the accusation that returning Vietnam vets were spat on. He never found a single incident. It has always been a useful lie, but it has always been just a lie. During the war I was pro peace, I got a lucky draft number, if I hadn't, I don't know if I would have split to Canada or done the time. Oh that was fair. Son of a local judge got drafted, sent to Germany, where he spent his time skiing the Alps. Still, people I knew who went to Vietnam actually enjoyed it, the accounting major/alcoholic who got the perfect job of auditing beer halls. Perfect. My friend Mike got a nice desk job and all the mau'u he wanted. When he got back he was not only aware that I was pro peace, he was, too, he said everybody he left back in Vietnam was also pro peace. I heard A. Rodriguez of high school got killed in Vietnam (I never found his name on The Wall however), I guess he wouldn't have enjoyed that too much. He never got to ski the Alps, his Hispanic heritage might have had a little to do with that. The best lesson we can get out of Vietnam is, be alert to recognize mistakes as early as possible, and correct them as early as possible, absolutely no good is accomplished by repeating the same mistake over and over and over. To return to the death penalty topic, a part of me would like to see everybody who served on a draft board then executed.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Leo Lakio>. Both Khalid Sheikh Mohammed & Osama Bin Laden have said that Moussaoui was not part of the 9/11 plan, and Moussaoui himself claimed that he was working on plans for a different attack and was not part of the 9/11 plot. He later claimed that he was, saying his earlier statement was a lie, yet no evidence has been released connecting him to those attacks.

Hi Leo,
First of all, Moussaoui had his trial, and was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt, in conspiring to kill American citizens in the 9 -11 attacks.... I would not go by hear-say of any sort on that.

Obviously, all 12 of the jurors in his trial believed that he was at least partially responsible for the murders of the about 3,000 people in the 9-11 attacks. AND, ONE of the jurors felt in spite of being a part of about 3,000 murders, should not beget a death sentence.

In the court's own summation:
Thus, the charged conspiracies were not agreements to carry out the 9/11 attacks specifically; the 9/11 attacks were overt acts taken after Moussaoui’s arrest...

As matapule has noted, your own opinions in this matter continue to color your perspective of "facts," and lead you to be selective in what you consider and what you reject (then again, to whom in this discussion does that description not apply?) But it does show that all your supposed research is called into question as failing to be objective.

And you still have not addressed my earlier question: by what proof can you claim that the "anti-DP" side is doing more of a "snow job" than the "pro-DP" side?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

...where are Bush/Cheney's WMDs that prompted our entry into Iraq?

Actually, during the times of war...The soldier's leaders should bear the responsibility of the murders.

Nobu, I think you may have just agreed with matapule (and kalalau) regarding who should be put on trial for the war in Iraq.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Leo> Yes, I say that anyone who participated is culpable. Each of us will be held accountable and have to answer for the actions we take. Anything else is a cop out. Too many in America today believe as you do. It is always someone else's fault/responsibility/blame. Stand up, be a man, take personal responsibility!

Nobu> I don't think you have the experience of being in a war zone. If you disobey orders, it can mean your life. If you refuse to follow orders in a war zone, right or wrong, your superior has the right to kill you.

When in the military, you are in a very different situation. You can be guilty until proven innocent rather than the civilian innocent until proven guilty.

The B29s that dropped the atomic bombs on Japan were orders from our Commander In Chief, the President, at the time, Truman. His orders were given with the OK from Congress. The pilots and crew of those B29's could have faced a firing squad for disobeying the order.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Nobu, I think you may have just agreed with matapule (and kalalau) regarding who should be put on trial for the war in Iraq.

Sort of. However, I don't think our actions in Iraq were illegal. While WMD were not found, we did know they had some before the invasion.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The Downing Street memo proves bush knew there were no wmds, if there had been he would have had no reason to try to rig the intelligence reports. bush was a bad man. No country is immune from getting evil leadership. Everyone who voted for bush has innocent blood on their hands. People who believe in judgment in the afterlife must admit their sin and beg God's forgiveness for their sin.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It's certainly looking like there's confusion in what murder, homicide, rules of engagement, warfare and other forms of killing are. Seeing this from tenured posters is seriously disappointing. To call all forms of killing a "murder" is legally and technically incorrect. Human-on-human killing is known as homicide. Not all forms of homicide are considered illegal. If you want to test that theory, break into my house.

Calling soldiers murderers is as ridiculous as calling police officers murderers. With some of the rationalization (I dare not call it logic) seen here, people who contribute to certain (legal) acts are being called murderers. Well, people who neglect to stop or prevent it should be murderers too. But to have 'innocent blood' by voting for someone? (Absurd) Considering the high probablility of our ancestors fighting wars, we'd all come from a long family history of murderers. This whole community is full of murderers, like it or not.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

It's certainly looking like there's confusion in what murder, homicide, rules of engagement, warfare and other forms of killing are. Seeing this from tenured posters is seriously disappointing. To call all forms of killing a "murder" is legally and technically incorrect. Human-on-human killing is known as homicide. Not all forms of homicide are considered illegal. If you want to test that theory, break into my house.

Calling soldiers murderers is as ridiculous as calling police officers murderers. With some of the rationalization (I dare not call it logic) seen here, people who contribute to certain (legal) acts are being called murderers. Well, people who neglect to stop or prevent it should be murderers too. But to have 'innocent blood' by voting for someone? (Absurd) Considering the high probablility of our ancestors fighting wars, we'd all come from a long family history of murderers. This whole community is full of murderers, like it or not.

100% correct. We seem to be wandering off course on the subject of reinstating capital punishment here in Hawaii Ne. I am surprised that there are so many here on this forum who oppose capital punishment. I guess Hawaii is a liberal state, which has a lot of people with liberal beliefs.

Still, if any politician takes the stand that he is pro capital punishment, he will get my vote.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The Downing Street memo proves bush knew there were no wmds, if there had been he would have had no reason to try to rig the intelligence reports. bush was a bad man. No country is immune from getting evil leadership. Everyone who voted for bush has innocent blood on their hands. People who believe in judgment in the afterlife must admit their sin and beg God's forgiveness for their sin.

Hi Kalalau,
The Downing Street memo doesn't really prove anything. Bush claims he went by the intelligence reports as far as the WMD in Iraq, and it is believeable, because Iraq did have poison gas at one time, and that can be proven, because Saddam used it against the Kurds. Because we knew that Saddam at least once before, had forms of WMD, and there is no records of him destroying them, it is highly possible that he had more of it, and we just could not find them.

One thing for sure, is Saddam did restrict the UN inspectors from going into some places that were suspected. This would indicate that he was trying to hide something, and this was a direct violation of the Desert Storm Treaty that Iraq agreed to.
Nobu

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I thought he gave inspectors free range. After all, why not? He didn't have any wmds at that time so why would he have restricted them? Theres testimony on this from some of the inspectors themselves. As to the Downing St. Memo, if the intelligence had said what bush wanted it to, he wouldn't have had any reason to want to "fix" it, like if your radiator isn't leaking you don't take it in for repairs. No, bush was a truly evil man, the kind of personality that is just fine with blowing away a million people, no problem at all. We have to accept that our system failed miserably in allowing such an incompetent, evil man to advance into the leadership. I feel comfortable having no innocent blood on my hands, I am free of guilt, I never voted for the murderer, but the people who made the murders possible, inevitable, by voting for bush need to accept their sin and beg God for forgiveness, and promise to never be taken in again by false piety. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers", the English language doesn't get any clearer. The Lord wasn't breaking in jokes for a night club act when He said that.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

In the court's own summation:
Thus, the charged conspiracies were not agreements to carry out the 9/11 attacks specifically; the 9/11 attacks were overt acts taken after Moussaoui’s arrest...

As matapule has noted, your own opinions in this matter continue to color your perspective of "facts," and lead you to be selective in what you consider and what you reject (then again, to whom in this discussion does that description not apply?) But it does show that all your supposed research is called into question as failing to be objective.

And you still have not addressed my earlier question: by what proof can you claim that the "anti-DP" side is doing more of a "snow job" than the "pro-DP" side?

Hi Leo,
I posted this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui
According to Wikipedia, Moussaoui was convicted of conspiracy in the 9-11 attacks.

On the proof, it is right in front of you. You look at the anti DP claims, and you can see what is untrue. For instance:

1. LWOP costs more than death.
2. The DP does not deter.
3. You cannot prove in court, a wrongful execution.
4. More than 100 has been exonerated from Death Row because of proven innocence. Actually, there are some, who have been exonerated from Death Row because of proven innocence, but nowhere near 100. Among the 112 who have been exonerated, some were granted a new trial, and key evidences has been lost, or key witnesses may have died or recanted.

Recently, someone posted a case, where there was an executionm where it is claimed that the executed was innocent.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/05...r-case/?hpt=T2

I researched this case over the past few days. While Willingham might have been innocent, given the evidence, I would have to say we were not at the trial, and we must remember, he was found guilty by a jury, who was given the evidence and all of the testimony. At best, if given a new trial, he might have gotten an acquittal, but he also was likely to come up with another guilty verdict. It was a fire, so much of the evidence was burnt, but being a family man, if I woke up with my house burning, the first thing I would try to do is save the members of my family with total disregard for myself. Willingham did not. He saved himself only.

Of course, there are some statements that are made by the pro DP side that is also not true, but far less than the anti DP faction.