How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I thought he gave inspectors free range. After all, why not? He didn't have any wmds at that time so why would he have restricted them? Theres testimony on this from some of the inspectors themselves. As to the Downing St. Memo, if the intelligence had said what bush wanted it to, he wouldn't have had any reason to want to "fix" it, like if your radiator isn't leaking you don't take it in for repairs. No, bush was a truly evil man, the kind of personality that is just fine with blowing away a million people, no problem at all. We have to accept that our system failed miserably in allowing such an incompetent, evil man to advance into the leadership. I feel comfortable having no innocent blood on my hands, I am free of guilt, I never voted for the murderer, but the people who made the murders possible, inevitable, by voting for bush need to accept their sin and beg God for forgiveness, and promise to never be taken in again by false piety. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers", the English language doesn't get any clearer. The Lord wasn't breaking in jokes for a night club act when He said that.

Good question. If Iraq didn't have anything to hide, why make certain places off limits to the UN inspectors? It was a violation of the treaty which Iraq agreed to in order to stop the Desert Storm War.

The fact that they banned the inspectors from certain areas is suspicious at the very least. The first few times, they banned the inspectors, then later opened up the place for the inspectors later. Probably after moving whatever they had to hide.

Upon the invasion, Iraq used SCUD missiles which are offensive weapons. They were not supposed to have them because of the Desert Storm Treaty. Also, they flew their aircrafts to Iran to avoid an air confrontation with the superior American fighter aircrafts.

I am glad we had Bush for our president after the 9-11 attacks, because although Bush really didn't do enough, in my opinion, Gore would have done less.

Also, I could not vote for Kerry in 2004, because he was a traitor in my opinion.
Nobu

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Voting for bush was like being on a jury that lets a mass murderer go. A bit different but the same result. Granted that the million murdered Iraqis don't count, but the 4,200 dead American military should. Thats almost twice the number Al Qaeda murdered in New York, we have no problem recognizing that as a crime, do we? So much about bush...I think one of the worst things ever was letting the Walter Reed military hospital deteriorate to the point that returning wounded soldiers were lying in their own excrement there. They had to even pay for their own meals. It was so much more important to give tax breaks to billionaires. Even accepting that Kerry denouncing the pointless Vietnam war that pointlessly killed 58000 of our soldiers might have been disloyal, I do think that having our wounded soldiers lie in their own excrement in what had been one of the best hospitals in the whole world (Eisenhower was treated for his heart attacks there) just so already obscenely wealthy Texas oil tycoons could save on their taxes waaaaay trumps anything disloyal about Kerry. Imagine it happening to you, which would you chose--lying in your own excrement or having someone denounce a war? And you do need to recognize mistakes, you do need to correct them. The so called swiftboat veterans for truth who lied against Kerry never even served with him, they were just a bunch of washed up bar flies. But hey, the country paid the price for its stupidity and evil in voting for bush, it is going out of business. Enjoy the show, and congratulations to everybody who made it possible.

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Also, I could not vote for Kerry in 2004, because he was a traitor in my opinion

Then you consider me a traitor. You are a real piece of work. Your own words condemn you.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Back to Vietnam for a bit. Like most Americans in the early '60's I was pro war. Gradually facts begin to emerge, I was wavering in support for the war when the Battle For Hill 8?? happened. That was sold as the decisive battle of the war, we had to either take or hold (sorry I forget which) Hill 8 something something, everything depended on it, the whole outcome of the war, and of course if we lost the war the Communists would be marching in from Ciudad Juarez in a few years. What a battle it was! The carnage! And at last we achieved our objective, we took Hill 8??. And held it for a week. Not so important after all the authorities told Americans. Just like in "1984", now the enemy is _________. And we were supposed to believe that. It was apparent that the people running the war 1) didn't have the any idea what they were doing and 2) didn't give a damn how many guys exactly like me they slaughtered. At that point the war had proved itself a mistake to me, there's never been any evidence otherwise. The collapse of Communism in Russia in 1991 undeniably confirmed that the Domino Theory the war was sold on was bs.

Cheney got something like 5 student deferments. Asked about it, he said he "had better things to do" than serve. No problem with Cheney, he is a billionaire. He was fine having other kids go die in his place. No problem at all with Cheney.

Yet Kerry. A purple heart. Oh yes, Republicans wandering around their 2004 convention wearing cute little purple bandaids, mocking his wounds suffered in the service of this country. Rich old ladies who were never called on to put up with even a day of basic training, belittling a wounded veteran. Great spectacle. Real patriotism. I think Kerry did than one tour in Vietnam, but might be mistaken about that. Kerry's mistake was in trying to end a mistake. First of all, you should never see a mistake. Accept everything. And even if you recognize a mistake, you must never do anything to correct it. Keep smoking. Keep driving drunk. Only good can come from repeating mistakes, or why care about consequences? We should still be in Vietnam. Right? Lets go back and finish the job right. Why or why not? Lets send the swiftboat veterans for truth right now since they think the war was so wonderful.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Leo,
I posted this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui
According to Wikipedia, Moussaoui was convicted of conspiracy in the 9-11 attacks.

ALL of the material I quoted in post 170 in this thread came from the very same Wikipedia article you submitted. As I noted earlier, you tend to be selective in what you choose to accept as "fact" - only the material that supports your position, while denying any accuracy of anything else, even from the same source material.

Of course, there are some statements that are made by the pro DP side that is also not true, but far less than the anti DP faction.

Once again, you claim that the "anti DP faction" makes more false statements than the "pro DP side." Yes, both sides are likely to spin information to bolster their own cases, but to protest that one side falsifies information more than the other? You have submitted nothing to prove your claim, nor can you do so --- because it is your opinion, not fact. This is a difference matapule has being trying to get you to understand.

[Nobunaga]

Hi Kalalau,
The choices for President against GW Bush were not all that great. If you voted for a Third Party Candidate, you would be throwing away you vote, so the election in 2000, we had Gore against Bush. As I posted before, I did vote for Gore, but I was really glad that we had Bush as our President after the 9-11 attack, because although I felt Bush didn't do enough in retaliation, Gore would have done less.

In 2004, the opposition was John Kerry. I know more or less, your opinion on the Vietnam War, but upon entering our military, we do take an oath to protect our country against all enemies, domestic and foriegn. Kerry was among our domestic enemies during the Vietnam War. Also, you might notice, the discrepancy in Kerries DD214, where his "honorable Discharge" was given to him way past his enlistment? I believe that is because he had a less than honorable discharge before that.

Now, President Obama? I say let's give him a chance to show his stuff. He might be a great president, and he might not. So far, I don't see either, but I think he was a far better choice than his opposition of McCain and Palin.

As I posted earlier, I am not a democrat or a republican. I vote for whom I think will do the job better.
Nobu

Hi Leo,
On the conviction of Moussaoui, I would say that his indictment was directly connected with the 9-11 attacks, and had it not been for those attacks, Moussaoui would not have been convicted of anything.

As far as the bogus claims by the anti DP faction, you will find that they do it in a very dishonest way. For instance, cost. The research done by Duke University, NC, will show that the DP costs about 3 times more than LWOP. Again, if you can get the math on the subject, I will show you where they made apples and oranges comparisons. The bogus claims go all the way up the Retired Supreme Court Justices, as in Gerald Kogan. His impressive speech against capital punishment looks convincing, but when you break down his claims with facts and actual numbers, and how he got them, you will see that even a Supreme Court Justice can be dishonest.

This is not to say that the people here are dishonest. What I am saying is many people here are believing the dishonest claims made by the anti DP faction.
Nobu

Then you consider me a traitor. You are a real piece of work. Your own words condemn you.

Hi Mataple,
I really don't know what you mean by that, but if you enlisted in our military for 6 years during the Vietnam War, and actively protested the war before those 6 years were up, then you would also be a traitor, because that is what Kerry did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam...gainst_the_War

I enlisted in the US Army for 3 years, and went to Vietnam in a non-combat position. Although my enlistment was for just 3 years, my military obligation was a total of 6 years with three of those years being inactive. I would never actively protest against that war during my 3 years of inactive service, and anyone who did, is a traitor to this country to me. Did you do that????? If you did, in any war with our country involved, then I would consider you a traitor to our country, because of the oath you took while entering our military, which can be found at:

<http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm> .
Nobu

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Nobu, my friend, it is clear that this is one area where we will likely remain in disagreement. As scrivener wisely noted, this is one of those areas that are so closely tied in with personal values and emotions that there's unlikely to be conversion. I just hope you can understand why some of us here feel that you confuse your own opinion (and opinion-biased research) for fact or truth. As in this statement:

On the conviction of Moussaoui, I would say that his indictment was directly connected with the 9-11 attacks...

I suspect you are wise enough to know that there are often several versions of "truth" - you don't appear to be a person who thinks only in terms of black or white.

As far as the bogus claims by the anti DP faction, you will find that they do it in a very dishonest way...This is not to say that the people here are dishonest. What I am saying is many people here are believing the dishonest claims made by the anti DP faction.

As they are on the pro DP side. But you are continually sidestepping my point. You have claimed twice in this thread that there is more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other. I don't dispute that there is dishonesty from both sides. I don't dispute the methods of dishonesty and misleading information.

I ask you once again, as clearly as I can: by what factual information (not personal anecdote) can you defend your claim of more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other?

If you again avoid answering this direct question, I think we can safely assume that you are unable to find proof to back such a claim. Therefore, it stands to reason that many of your supposed "facts" are on equally shaky ground.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

OK, this is what I mean by dishonesty in the anti-DP faction. Looking at this site: http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42
and: http://www.beinformedjournal.com/bei...llions-of.html

It looks obvious that the DP costs more than LWOP, but let's look deeper.

First of all, 90% of all convictions for all crimes are achieved by plea bargain which costs very little, and have minimal appeals. MANY DP eligible cases are settled by plea bargain so the defendant can avoid a death sentence, and therefore, capital punishment actually saves money.

HOWEVER, where does the plea bargain go, as far as this statistic??? If you said "The non-DP trial" you are partially correct, but isn't it the DP that actually saves you that money?

Now, I don't know how they came up with the figure of $90,000 per inmate per year to incarcerate a prisoner on Death Row, MORE than incarcerating a prisoner serving LWOP. Please think about it? Do we feed those on Death Row better??? Do we give these dangerous prisoners extra guarding? Or how about better prison cells? What exactly costs $90,000 more???? I don't even have a guess for that one. Perhaps they are making an apples to oranges comparison by adding the trial costs of the DP cases?

One thing to consider, is if a DP state takes away death as a punishment, several things will eventually happen. Among them are:

1. A plea bargain for the most heinous murder will have to offer the murderer a sentence less than the most severe, which is LWOP.
2. A murderer has nothing to lose by going to trial if he faces 20 years or more in prison compared to LWOP. The reason is they do not look that far ahead. 20 years is a lifetime to any convicted felon.
3. Those working with the courts system will not take a pay cut if capital punishment is abolished. They will simply raise the price of their services for the non-DP trials.

This is the type of "research" done by Duke University, on the costs of capital punishment. Is it honest? Well, it is not exactly dishonest in some cases, but the comparisons are not correct. Being incorrect is being dishonest to me.

Again, I am not singling anyone in this forum out, as while you might believe the things written about costs, it isn't anyone here that is doing this type of research.
Nobu

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Did you do that????? If you did, in any war with our country involved, then I would consider you a traitor to our country.

Neither I nor anyone else needs to justify their actions to you. People were drafted into the war in VietNam, they weren't given a choice. Kerry served his country honorably, was wounded, and through his experience came to call the "war" in VietNam for what it truly was, a bogus scam by politicians in the US. I honor Kerry and those who protested that conflict and those who protest the US intervention in the Middle East today (yes, I parade in the street) for being forthright and people of conscience. Consider me a traitor.

Would you have volunteered to serve in VietNam had you not been drafted? Most draftees would not have volunteered. Most young people today do not volunteer to serve in the military. Recruitment numbers are way down. Service in VietNam is not a de facto recognition of patriotism. Service in VietNam only means that you had to go, like it or not. People like Cheney are the true traitors, not Kerry. If Kerry were a TeaBagger like Cheney, you think differently about him.

I honor people who volunteer to serve the USA whether it be the military (in a just cause), Peace Corps, VISTA, or grass roots volunteerism like the Slippah Project. Let's see, that's what Obama did. I do not call McCain a traitor. I honor his service. I do call him gullible for serving in VietNam and continuing to support US military expansionism. How many people (men and women) under 50 on HT have volunteered to serve their country in some capacity? I believe that community service and/or service to country should be required of all people out of high school or college for a minimum of two years. But then that is what Progressives have been talking about for years and because it is a Progressive idea then it must be no good.

The biggest threat to the US is people who define right and wrong through their own narrow view and take it one step further, calling those who don't fit that personal view of the world unpatriotic and traitor. In that case, I am proud to be a traitor.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I don't dispute that there is dishonesty from both sides. I don't dispute the methods of dishonesty and misleading information.

I ask you once again, as clearly as I can: by what factual information (not personal anecdote) can you defend your claim of more dishonesty coming from one side than from the other?

OK, this is what I mean by dishonesty in the anti-DP faction.

Okay, I can't be any clearer, so I'm giving up on trying to get my point across to you. I'm realizing that you probably WANT to misunderstand. That's unfortunate.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Back to Vietnam for a bit. Like most Americans in the early '60's I was pro war. Gradually facts begin to emerge, I was wavering in support for the war when the Battle For Hill 8?? happened. That was sold as the decisive battle of the war, we had to either take or hold (sorry I forget which) Hill 8 something something, everything depended on it, the whole outcome of the war, and of course if we lost the war the Communists would be marching in from Ciudad Juarez in a few years. What a battle it was! The carnage! And at last we achieved our objective, we took Hill 8??. And held it for a week. Not so important after all the authorities told Americans. Just like in "1984", now the enemy is _________. And we were supposed to believe that. It was apparent that the people running the war 1) didn't have the any idea what they were doing and 2) didn't give a damn how many guys exactly like me they slaughtered. At that point the war had proved itself a mistake to me, there's never been any evidence otherwise. The collapse of Communism in Russia in 1991 undeniably confirmed that the Domino Theory the war was sold on was bs.

Cheney got something like 5 student deferments. Asked about it, he said he "had better things to do" than serve. No problem with Cheney, he is a billionaire. He was fine having other kids go die in his place. No problem at all with Cheney.

Yet Kerry. A purple heart. Oh yes, Republicans wandering around their 2004 convention wearing cute little purple bandaids, mocking his wounds suffered in the service of this country. Rich old ladies who were never called on to put up with even a day of basic training, belittling a wounded veteran. Great spectacle. Real patriotism. I think Kerry did than one tour in Vietnam, but might be mistaken about that. Kerry's mistake was in trying to end a mistake. First of all, you should never see a mistake. Accept everything. And even if you recognize a mistake, you must never do anything to correct it. Keep smoking. Keep driving drunk. Only good can come from repeating mistakes, or why care about consequences? We should still be in Vietnam. Right? Lets go back and finish the job right. Why or why not? Lets send the swiftboat veterans for truth right now since they think the war was so wonderful.

Uh, Kalalau,
On Kerry's Purple Hearts,
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

I am not sure how to take FactCheck, but I do know that within a span of 4 months, Kerry got THREE Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silve Star. That is a lot of hardware to get in 4 months without dying in the process, especially for someone who was protesting that very war he was participating in to get those medals.

While there might be some fact in it, I would say that is questionable at the very least. I know of a person here, who served TWO 13 month tours in Nam, who, in that 26 months got just ONE Purple Heart, and no medals for any kind of valor in combat.

Of course, I wasn't there to see Kerry earn those medals, or fake them, but the time frame is very questionable.
Nobu

[Leo Lakio]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

John Kerry, Vietnam, WMDs, Iraq, George Bush, Barack Obama, 9/11 ---

what was this thread supposedly about again?

Hell, let's go completely overboard then! How about
The Top 10 Craziest Tea Party Quotes of All Time?

[matapule]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

but I do know that within a span of 4 months, Kerry got THREE Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silve Star. That is a lot of hardware to get in 4 months without dying in the process, especially for someone who was protesting that very war he was participating in to get those medals.

While there might be some fact in it, I would say that is questionable at the very least. I know of a person here, who served TWO 13 month tours in Nam, who, in that 26 months got just ONE Purple Heart, and no medals for any kind of valor in combat.

Maybe Kerry was more aggressive and braver than your buddies in pursuing the VietCong.

I'm ashamed that there are people who are willing to deny the facts by those who were there to further their own personal political agenda. It would not surprise me that you are a "birther" too.

Like Bobinator, I am no longer going to give you any legitimacy. You are banished.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

bush again...in Aug 2001 he was given an intelligence report titled "Al Qaeda Determined To Strike Inside U.S.", and he then went for a month long vacation at his photo op ranch in Texas, the longest vacation in the history of the Presidency. One of the scenarios for terrorism discussed in the report was the danger of terrorists flying hijacked airliners into tall buildings in southern Manhattan. And a few days after bush returned to DC the attacks happened. Neglect? Negligence? Incompetence? Sloth? It sure wasn't dedication to duty, was it. Condoleza Rice tried to explain the title of the report as DeterminED meaning Past Tense, meaning Al Qaeda had been determined to strike, but wasn't any more. Pathetic. From the Secretary of State. What a miserable collection of fools. We also have testimony from bush's former treasury secretary, former head of Alcoa, that at the first cabinet meeting he attended, which would have been about 8 months before 9-11, big maps were displayed and Cheney was showing how Iraq's oil fields were going to be distributed among bush's oil company campaign contributors.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Matapule> Neither I nor anyone else needs to justify their actions to you.

Nobu> Correct. Everyone is entitiled to his/her own opinions, and no one but you can control what you wish to believe.

Matapule> People were drafted into the war in VietNam, they weren't given a choice.

Nobu> Regardless of how you enter the military, you must take the oath in order to enter. This is whether you volunteer or get drafted. If in case you forgot, here it is again:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

If you refuse to take that oath, you might be punished, but you cannot enter the military without taking it.

Matapule> Kerry served his country honorably, was wounded, and through his experience came to call the "war" in VietNam for what it truly was, a bogus scam by politicians in the US.

Nobu> Again, no one can control what you believe. I believe, that three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star for Valor, and a Silver Star for valor in combat within four months of duty is very questionable at best.

Matapule> I honor Kerry and those who protested that conflict and those who protest the US intervention in the Middle East today (yes, I parade in the street) for being forthright and people of conscience. Consider me a traitor.

Nobu> Upon enlisting in the US NAVY, Kerry took the oath above. He enlisted for SIX YEARS in 1966, and he was actively protesting the Vietnam war in 1971. I don't honor anyone who does not live by his/her word.

Matapule> Would you have volunteered to serve in VietNam had you not been drafted?

Nobu> I was not drafted. I enlisted in the US Army, and after my training and some on the job training, I volunteered for duty in Vietnam.

Matapule> Most draftees would not have volunteered.

Nobu> Correct, especially during a time of war.

Matapule> I do not call McCain a traitor. I honor his service. I do call him gullible for serving in VietNam and continuing to support US military expansionism.

Nobu> Neither do I. McCain was a POW in Vietnam when his aircraft was shot down over enemy territory. While he was not a traitor, and he might have been a hero, he was a flunky guy for a US pilot, who lost a total of FIVE US aircrafts.

I honor those who volunteer into our military. In my younger days, ALL able bodied men had an obligation to serve their country. I honored my obligation in full. While I too, opposed entering both Afghanistan and Iraq, I honor the decisions made by our leaders of our country.