Comments on the Akaka Bill?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Tell that to Nainoa Thompson, the various crews of Hokulea, and all the celestial navigators who are learning from them.
Wrong again, Tim.

Don't forget:
Makali'i
Hawai'iloa
Hokualaka'i
Iosepa
Namahoe

there are wa'a kaulua from Hilo to Kaua'i, built or being built, that have touched a multitude of lives using integrated techniques, dependent upon the principles of astronomy, for Hawaiian sailing methods.

As for the protesting of Mauna Kea, there is a difference between fears of overdeveloping the mountain and being "against astronomy".

[Miulang]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Tell that to Nainoa Thompson, the various crews of Hokulea, and all the celestial navigators who are learning from them.
Wrong again, Tim. I agree with Kimo. I know several, and I see many more that I don't know.
Tim, you're just hanging out in the wrong area, apparently.

And tell that to the canoe builders of New Zealand, Tahiti, Tonga and the Cook Islands who were at the Festival of Canoes in Lahaina last month. They said had it not been for the Hokule'a and her voyages throughout the Pacific, their own canoe building heritages might have been lost. So not only is Hokule'a providing inspiration for the people of Hawai'i, she is making other indigenous people around the Pacific proud of their heritages enough to want to preserve them, too.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

I should repent and eat lima beans.

My basic point stems from sailing out of Ala Wai, Honokohau, Maalaea, Hilo, et al, and then comparing that to all the Hawaiians I see running the fishing fleets.

Well represented in the fishing sector. Just a few sailing. That would have been a better way to say it.

BTW, I had the good fortune of meeting Capt. Thompson on the coast of South Kona one evening. Truly a brilliant mind. The essence of the sailor/astronomer.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

finally, we should command of ourselves to complete the genealogy of Pacific voyaging. If not for Mau Pialug from Micronesia, who shared with Nainoa and the gang his knowledge of deep sea-faring via the dependence upon the stars for navigation, all might have been lost.

[Paul]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

I seldom see any Hawaiians sailing. But they do love their power boats.

Just ignore timkona with his ignorant generalizing, condescending attitude and anti-Kanaka Maoli rhetoric, "Hawaiians do this or Hawaiians don't do that". I decided not to respond to his posts but sometimes the things he posts compels me to respond.

Anybody who brags about how smart they are really is an idiot. An education may not make you smarter but it will make you more educated as in knowing what you are talking about. Hope he has finally figured out what Social Darwinism is.

[waioli kai]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

- - "Hope he has finally figured out what Social Darwinism is." - -

Even if he did, he wouldn't let facts get in his way.

[LikaNui]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Just a few sailing. That would have been a better way to say it.

No, actually, that wouldn't have been better, or at least not much. As we've seen there are far far more than "just a few".

BTW, I had the good fortune of meeting Capt. Thompson on the coast of South Kona one evening. Truly a brilliant mind. The essence of the sailor/astronomer.

And he didn't tell you about the massive uptick of interest in the ancient navigational methods? Interesting.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

The Hawaiians don't want it badly enough and they NEVER DID, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed the haoles to take over so easily.

Jewlipino

You mean Japanese and Chinese and a few other Asians don't you? Last time I looked around, Asians seem to have taken over. Where's all the Haole's in charge?

[Miulang]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Ask yourselves, how many Hawaiians have died for the cause? The Hawaiians don't want it badly enough and they NEVER DID, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed the haoles to take over so easily.

Jewlipino

I can think of at least 3: Eddie Aikau, who was lost when he tried to paddle for help when the Hokulea overturned in rough waters off Lanai, and George Helm and Eddie Mitchell of the Kahoolawe ohana who were lost at sea while attempting to occupy Kahoolawe.

Miulang

[Jonah K]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

finally, we should command of ourselves to complete the genealogy of Pacific voyaging. If not for Mau Pialug from Micronesia, who shared with Nainoa and the gang his knowledge of deep sea-faring via the dependence upon the stars for navigation, all might have been lost.

While Mau's (and that's "Piailug", not "Pialug") contribution to modern, Hawaiian wayfinding is unparalleled, there were other contributors, such as Herb Kane, Wil Kyselka, Henry Piailug, Buffalo Keaulana, and Abraham Pi'ianai'a. However, the knowledge of Micronesian wayfinding probably wouldn't have been lost, since it's always been passed down through the generations on Satawal, Puluwat, and Pulap.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

While Mau's (and that's "Piailug", not "Pialug") contribution to modern, Hawaiian wayfinding is unparalleled, there were other contributors, such as Herb Kane, Wil Kyselka, Henry Piailug, Buffalo Keaulana, and Abraham Pi'ianai'a. However, the knowledge of Micronesian wayfinding probably wouldn't have been lost, since it's always been passed down through the generations on Satawal, Puluwat, and Pulap.

well, yeah. That's what I said.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

I don't think anyone has ever doubted the existence of Native Hawaiians, but there has been significant and very pertinent doubts as to whether Native Hawaiians exist as a "tribe" or some other POLITICAL organization. Jewlipino

We never existed as a tribe. As for our political status, we were the citizens of a nation, as defined as such by the United Nations' definition. We had a constitutional monarchy, an elected legislature, public education, public health care system, collected taxes, minted money, and dealt with a naturalized citizenry population base. As for international trade, we entered into and honored over thirty such treaties over a span of 80 years.

What tribe™ ever did that?

The kanakas spend all their time arguing with each other over who gets to rebury stolen artifacts and over who gets to be the ali'i when they finally kick all the haoles out (like that will ever happen...). Jewlipino

That is as fair a statement to make as saying the Jews spend all their time arguing who gets to be considered a Jew™, or what happens when they finally kick out all the Palestinians (like that will ever happen...).

As a people the Hawaiians have been almost entirely culturally assimilated and have lost their cultural and ethnic distinctiveness. Jewlipino

And just how "Middle Eastern" is your Average Jew™? Or, how Igorot is your Average Philipino™? Between all that rapin' and pillagin' over the millennia, are ya sure you are who you say you are?

Hell the vast majority of them worship Jesus, the GOD OF THEIR CONQUERORS AND OPPRESSORS. If that isn't a conflict of interest I don't know what is. Jewlipino

Step back into time and think Hawaiian for a minute, and read why Hawaiians didn't see Jesus as this oppressive god.

For those Hawaiians who wax poetic about sovereignty as a panacea for all the social injustice visited upon them I'd like to share this tidbit: After the destruction of Judea by the Romans (see the Bar Kochba Revolt... at least the Jews fought and DIED for their land... Jewlipino

And so did we.

..., unlike some people that I don't think that I have to mention) the Jewish Diaspora had to suffer through close to 2000 YEARS of homelessness and persecution throughout the Christian nations. It took the HOLOCAUST for the Jews to get Israel and frankly, from my perspective, it seems to be a bit of a poison pill. As I watch what happens in Israel I can't help but think that in many ways Jews have become the oppressors. Jewlipino

How convenient and fortunate for you that if you wanted a Jewish homeland, you can have one. Or if you want a Filipino homeland, you can have that too. What about enjoying your American identity? By golly gee, there ya go!

But what IS your point? That you don't deserve your own nation? Or because the mulitudinous manner in which you can consider Jews as oppressors qualifies you to say that WE will not/cannot/do not deserve to figure out for ourselves what is best for Hawai'i?

The point is, the Akaka Bill (notice how I managed to steer this back on subject) is worthless in ANY event since the Hawaiians (the Kanakas that is) lack the cultural unity to the point where I'm not convinced they even deserve to be called a nation of people! Ask yourselves, how many Hawaiians have died for the cause? The Hawaiians don't want it badly enough and they NEVER DID, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed the haoles to take over so easily. Jewlipino

And herein concludes the most inane part of your post. You, who descend from
a) a country comprised of over 800 islands, many different languages, devisive religious ties so much and a track record of some of the most inept political leaders to grace the last half-century that it is a wonder the P.I. is even a single country and
b) a people scattered to the four winds, with so many cultural and religious divisions that there are Jews who don't even consider other Jews to be Jewish enough or worthy to be Jewish period...

...that you can dare consider yourself qualified to tell us here what we deserve.

Please.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Hmmmm.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe

A tribe, viewed historically or developmentally, consists of a social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states, though some modern theorists hold that contemporary tribes can only be understood in terms of their relationship to states.

The term is often loosely used to refer to any non-Western or indigenous society. Many anthropologists use the term to refer to societies organized largely on the basis of kinship, especially corporate descent groups (see clan and lineage).

{bold mine}

What tribe™ ever did that?

None...there were 500+ individual Nations. 'Tribe' is a euro-concept for something other than what they were used to.

[Jewlipino]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

I don't think ANY "nation" has ANY predetermined right to existence. PERIOD. Nations get their right to exist by being able to protect themselves from the predations of others in any manner (military, diplomatic, etc.). The Hawaiian "nation" clearly did not do so and thus ceased to exist as a global political entity. Regardless of how it ceased to exist doesn't change the fact that it happened and that there are a lot of sour grapes about it from the great-grandchildren of the people who let it happen!

How convenient and fortunate for you that if you wanted a Jewish homeland, you can have one. Or if you want a Filipino homeland, you can have that too. What about enjoying your American identity? By golly gee, there ya go!

But what IS your point? That you don't deserve your own nation? Or because the mulitudinous manner in which you can consider Jews as oppressors qualifies you to say that WE will not/cannot/do not deserve to figure out for ourselves what is best for Hawai'i?

And herein concludes the most inane part of your post. You, who descend from
a) a country comprised of over 800 islands, many different languages, devisive religious ties so much and a track record of some of the most inept political leaders to grace the last half-century that it is a wonder the P.I. is even a single country and
b) a people scattered to the four winds, with so many cultural and religious divisions that there are Jews who don't even consider other Jews to be Jewish enough or worthy to be Jewish period...

...that you can dare consider yourself qualified to tell us here what we deserve.

Please.

I just have to respond to this.... My reasons for citing the examples above lie in my familiarity with the topics, it is no assertion of cultural superiority or otherwise. The use of the term "deserve" was inappropriate on my part, sorry. It was a shortcut to typing out the larger statement which is that those nationalities that have proven successful over the long run have maintained relatively tight social networks usually based around culture and religion and have been sufficiently willing to use force to protect their prerogatives whatever they may be. I personally don't mind my racial composition in my tag because when people like Pua'i Mana'o run out of good reasons for stuff like sovereignty I want them to have a target to shoot at. The fact is that I do not identify with my filipino side at all and despite a well-reinforced religious education I am in fact an atheist. Sure the PI is barely a country... at least it IS a country unlike Hawai'i. Sure there are Jews who wouldn't consider me Jewish for a second because I am an atheist, non-practicing, half-breed, however I know that the majority (and it is a VAST majority) does not care (as long as I'm not a Christian). But as long as my cultural-ethnic makeup is being attacked (this means you Pua'i) in relation to this topic I think we are dodging the main thrust which is the Akaka Bill and the sovereignty movement ASSUME that they have the RIGHT to exist when history proves that no such right exists at all.

Jewlipino

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

I don't think ANY "nation" has ANY predetermined right to existence. PERIOD

For clarity's sake, I ask if you are including Israel here, yes? (Since you did post earlier that, from your perspective, "it {the State of Israel} seems to be a bit of a poison pill.")