Smart-Growth Workshop

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Comments such as the ones above are very demeaning to well meaning community members who deserve to have the opportunity to voice their opinions. Many of the comments being written that attempt to negate the value of the average community member's opinion sound very .... hybolic to me. (That is an unofficial activist term!)

Hybolic = Not a word

Well meaning community members with "opinions" would be productive citizens if they were armed with "facts". Many of the folks who practice the Politics of NO do so armed with opinion instead of fact.

I once knew a person in my math class who had many "opinions". Funny how he got a lot of wrong answers in an absolute environment like mathematics.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Comments such as the ones above are very demeaning to well meaning community members who deserve to have the opportunity to voice their opinions. Many of the comments being written that attempt to negate the value of the average community member's opinion sound very .... hybolic to me. (That is an unofficial activist term!)

Therein lies another problem with "smart growth" and its promulgation in Hawai'i -- it's hybolic and the phrase itself is somewhat condenscending and implies that other strategies aren't particularly akamai. The opinions of "well-meaning" community members who don't possess a graduate degree in urban planning or a closely-aligned discipline are often devalued by neophyte "smart growth" proponents, who often fail to realize that what they are preaching is not necessarily applicable universally.

Here's a link to a PDF of an interesting commentary on "smart growth" by economist Randall O'Toole....
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv24n3/otoole.pdf

[Miulang]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

I personally think that the people who have the most vested interest in the future of a community are the ones who have lived there longest, because they are the ones who know the history of the area. Just because you don't have a degree in urban planning doesn't mean your input shouldn't count, just as saying lessons that can be learned from what happened in the past should be discredited because what goes around, comes around, and usually it does that in spades. One thing I am learning as I get older is always listen to the wisdom of the kupuna; being young gives you energy in short bursts, but being old and wise teaches you how to conserve what energy you have to sustain yourself over a longer period of time.

Miulang

P.S. The term "hybolic" is a valid one. It's a math term, but in "Pidginese", it means "high maka-maka".

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Randall O'Toole....lol....bet you never heard of him till you found that article.

"Low densities provide many benefits that people value,including lower land costs,"

If you think that is the truth in Hawaii (an island), you just don't get it.

Pretty Darn Funny.

[MadAzza]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Randall O'Toole....lol....bet you never heard of him till you found that article.

"Low densities provide many benefits that people value,including lower land costs,"

If you think that is the truth in Hawaii (an island), you just don't get it.

Pretty Darn Funny.

What?? An "economist" wrote that? Seriously?

That just doesn't make sense in an area with a finite land mass. Like, you know, Earth.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Randall O'Toole....lol....bet you never heard of him till you found that article.

"Low densities provide many benefits that people value,including lower land costs,"

If you think that is the truth in Hawaii (an island), you just don't get it.

Pretty Darn Funny.

Brah, my old friend Karen Umemoto on the faculty over at UHM's Department of Urban and Regional Planning introduced me to some of the works of O'Toole, William Fulton, Peter Calthorpe, among others. Both of us worked with Paul Ong, when we were lowly grad students at UCLA. As for the validity of O'Toole's observations, they tend to resonate with the "rugged individualists" who live in SFRs on ag lots of an acre or greater, with few county services in areas like Puna and Ka'u.

Paved roads? Don't need 'em. Water? That's what the catchment tank is for. Electricity? Solar, a few car batteries, and the old generator out back. Food? It's growing in the yard and swimming in the ocean. Keiki? Don't have so many, one or two is enough. Healthcare? A bottle of aspirin and a bottle of alcohol (either the "rubbing" kind or "drinking" kind, it doesn't matter). As for folks living in Kona and complaining about the traffic and rampant growth? They can always move back to the mainland and take their lifestyle and new-fangled, high makamaka ideas with them. That's the basic mentality of many long-term residents in areas like Puna and Ka'u when it comes to "smart growth."

Local parochialism aside, it's always beneficial to question some of the underlying assumptions behind "smart growth." For instance, the nature and rate of population growth itself. Cognizant of the fact that Hawai'i is a finite, island land mass, Ben Wattenberg (author of "The Birth Dearth") would argue that it's spurious to assume that the population will continue to increase at a level greater than the replacement rate. The population growth rate of some island land masses, like Samoa, the FSM, Norfolk and Pitcairn Islands, and Tokelau is actually negative. In addition, the population growth rate of Japan is almost negligible. Throw in a few wars, epidemics, and natural disasters and population pressures are somewhat alleviated. Here's a link to some data....
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...elds/2002.html

Hybolic = Not a word

Ho brah, you stay mento o wot? In pidgin (also called HCE or "Hawai'i Creole English" by linguists), "hybolic" (possibly derived from mathematical term "hyperbolic") is a valid word used to describe "fancy or high makamaka, intellectual kine" language. We already have enough folks here practicing the politics of "DON'T KNOW YET." Hopefully, the presenters at the "smart growth" workshop won't be "preaching to the choir" or worse yet, alienate the "unconverted" and the "unconvinced."

[SouthKona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

P.S. The term "hybolic" is a valid one. It's a math term, but in "Pidginese", it means "high maka-maka".

Might as well forget it Miulang, TimKona probably doesn't know what "high maka-maka" means either. In describing his condescending and better-than-thou opining, I should have just said he sounded racist and elitist.

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

My favorite thing about low-density growth is the distances created that increase dependence upon automobiles. Slow moving vehicles emit lots of unburned hydrocarbons, which is the number one problem with the ozone layer. Another great thing about low-density growth is the fact that once we bulldoze the farmland to replace with houses, we never go back. Everybody wants to grow 1 carrot and 1 row of corn? I guess nobody needs to be a blacksmith or a teacher. One farmer can feed 20 families, but that kind of economy of scale is just no good for society. I suddenly feel so enlightened. We invented urban sprawl when the automobile came into fashion. It is cognitive dissonance to embrace low-density growth AND villify the automobile. So for those of you who would choose low-density growth, remember, you are doing exactly the opposite of what is good for the environment.

I will add hybolic to my pidgin dictionary, and store it very carefully, on the top row of the book shelf, next to my ebonics dictionary, and my bible. I like to keep all my scientific texts together.

When criticizing ignorance becomes politically incorrect, people like O'Toole will probably rejoice.

Hey Madazza, O'Toole & his ilk are a pretty entertaining read. Check out urbanfutures.org commentary page.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Might as well forget it Miulang, TimKona probably doesn't know what "high maka-maka" means either. In describing his condescending and better-than-thou opining, I should have just said he sounded racist and elitist.

Actually, the statement below is racist and elitist.

I will add hybolic to my pidgin dictionary, and store it very carefully, on the top row of the book shelf, next to my ebonics dictionary, and my bible. I like to keep all my scientific texts together.

Fortunately, other advocates of "smart growth" in Hawai'i aren't as culturally ignorant and don't inadvertently present a case for "low-density" growth.

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Racism is not my bag. Children of many different races speak pidgin. Eminem is one great example of a kid who is a master of ebonics.

If you consider it elitist to be smart, educated, or logical, then I stand guilty as charged.

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

Racism is not my bag. Children of many different races speak pidgin. Eminem is one great example of a kid who is a master of ebonics.

It's amusing that you claim that "racism is not your bag" and then claim that "children of many different races speak pidgin." "Children of many different ethnic groups..." is the phrasing that someone who doesn't subscribe to the tenets of racism and possesses an in-depth knowledge of sociology would have used to express the same sentiment. As for Marshall Mathers being a great example of a "kid" who is a "master of ebonics," it's somewhat meaningless considering that ebonics is not the same as pidgin. "Ebonics" (or African American Vernacular English) is a sociolect of American English. Pidgin (or Hawai'i Creole English), on the other hand, is a distinct language that happens to have some English words in its vocabulary. Someone knowledgeable about Hawai'i and Pacific Island cultures would have probably used Jason Hershey (aka "O-shen") and his mastery Tok Pisin (one of the official languages of PNG) as an example instead.

If you consider it elitist to be smart, educated, or logical, then I stand guilty as charged.

"Smart, educated, or logical?" I guess that "smart" and "logical" should be ruled out, which leaves "educated." Care to expound upon your educational background, especially as it relates to "smart growth?"

[timkona]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

You win Jonah....I'm finished with your attitude

[Jonah K]

Re: Smart-Growth Workshop

You win Jonah....I'm finished with your attitude

Now, consider what would happen if we were next-door neighbors in a "high-density" housing development. That SFR with a large yard in a "low-density" community suddenly begins to look mighty attractive. An underlying assumption of "smart growth" is that people in high-density communities will be able to live together somewhat amicably. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

[Miulang]

Time to retire that "Great American Dream"

As the price of single family homes increases, more and more potential homeowners are being forced to desert the Great American Dream of owning a house with a yard and white picket fence in order to afford that chicken in the pot to feed themselves and their families. So while the market for single family homes might be softening, the market for condos is not. But that too comes with a price.

As this article notes, the notion of a single family home and yard is uniquely American: the people in most other countries already live in high rise buildings.

Miulang

P.S. Another story this morning about stagnant wages also causing people to forego buying houses and instead purchasing condos (if they can earn enough). What this current economy is doing is creating a lot of new jobs in the service sector; looks good for the White House but in actuality is BAD for the citizenry because service jobs tend to be lower end and pay less than professional white collar jobs or jobs in manufacturing.

[MadAzza]

Re: Time to retire that "Great American Dream"

What this current economy is doing is creating a lot of new jobs in the service sector; looks good for the White House but in actuality is BAD for the citizenry because service jobs tend to be lower end and pay less than professional white collar jobs or jobs in manufacturing.

Why is that "bad"? We need to stop viewing service industry work as demeaning and worthless. (angry emoticon here) Of course those jobs pay less. So what? Not everyone has to earn $50,000 or $60,000 a year or more.

Many members of Generation X think the world owes them a good living, without their having to put any effort into it. I worked my ass off since I was 12 and today I'm doing well, because I was more than willing to work my ass off since I was 12. Thank you, Mom and Dad, for raising me properly.

I spent many years when I was younger working in the service industry. It's called "starting at the bottom and working your way up." You quickly learn that hard work, inventiveness and courtesy will take you farther than sloth and sullenness.

The more service jobs are available, the more young people can get into the work force so they can start earning money -- and, more important, learning all kinds of skills that will help them AND society later.
People today seem to assume that everyone in the job market should work at a $70,000-a-year job right out of high school. People who do that have NO respect for those who work in the service industry, and it shows in the way they treat those workers. (another angry little red face here)

If I were queen of the world, everyone would have to work in the service industry for at least two years. Then maybe they'd get beyond their demeaning, "I'm better than you" attitude toward those workers.

However ... I do agree that the Bush administration could be more honest about how much those jobs pay. But that's not part of the statistics -- it's "jobs created," not "jobs created that make a buttload of money."