New smoking ban

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

Miulang, should people who hang out in smoke shops have to run outside to have a cigarette? The law in Hawaii says no. Why?

Up here, there are "private" clubs which allow smoking of cigars and cigarettes on the premises. But as long as it's a public space, it's governed by State or Federal laws.

If a bar owner wanted to only cater to patrons who wanted to smoke cigarettes and cigars, what's stopping him/her from opening up such an establishment as a "private" club where people paid a nominal fee to be able to smoke in the company of like-minded people?

They have rules like this about alcohol consumption in public in Salt Lake City: the town is basically "dry" (you can't buy alcohol in a public bar or restaurant...you have to go buy minibottles from a state liquor store and pay for the ice and mixer at the bar). But you can buy a "membership" in a private club where you can buy liquor by the drink. Couldn't the proprietors do the same kind of thing in Hawai'i for smokers?

Miulang

[damontucker]

Re: New smoking ban

Damn scriv... after reading your posts... I'm thinking about starting again

3 weeks and counting for me.... still never put a hole through a wall at my place.

[scrivener]

Miulang, our new law allows smoking in tobacco shops. People are allowed to smoke here, but if the owner of the tobacco shop opens a bar and the exact same people go there, smoking is not allowed. Does that make sense to you?

If a bar owner wanted to only cater to patrons who wanted to smoke cigarettes and cigars, what's stopping him/her from opening up such an establishment as a "private" club where people paid a nominal fee to be able to smoke in the company of like-minded people?

What if, instead, all the like-minded people simply agree to meet somewhere to have a drink and a smoke, and NOT pay a fee, since everyone there thinks it's okay?

They have rules like this about alcohol consumption in public in Salt Lake City: the town is basically "dry" (you can't buy alcohol in a public bar or restaurant...you have to go buy minibottles from a state liquor store and pay for the ice and mixer at the bar). But you can buy a "membership" in a private club where you can buy liquor by the drink. Couldn't the proprietors do the same kind of thing in Hawai'i for smokers?

Are you saying you think this is a good thing?

3 weeks and counting for me.... still never put a hole through a wall at my place.

Manoa, this is awesome. Seriously. You are only doing yourself good, and of course your loved ones. Keep it up!

[Miulang]

Re: New smoking ban

What if, instead, all the like-minded people simply agree to meet somewhere to have a drink and a smoke, and NOT pay a fee, since everyone there thinks it's okay?

The State laws govern PUBLIC places. The owner of a smoke shop who wants to also open up a bar should sue the State to allow him to conduct business in his PRIVATE establishment any way he chooses, or get a coalition to push for the repeal of the law.

Are you saying you think this is a good thing?

No, I think it's a stupid thing, but it's one thing some people in one community (who I think happen to be in the majority) managed to do to get around a problem in a LEGAL way.

Miulang

[damontucker]

Re: New smoking ban

Manoa, this is awesome. Seriously. You are only doing yourself good, and of course your loved ones. Keep it up!

Between the cost of the patch and the pack a day I was smoking... I figured I've saved about $20.00 between the price difference in just 3 weeks....

Now I just have to figure out a way to quit eating so much.... it's very hard to break the habit of going out to have a cigarette...but now I have co-workers feeding me...etc.... I can only chew gum for so long until I feel like I have lock jaw... but still yet...

Thank you for the support.... I'm doing it more because of my son then anything....it was a real shocker to see a 2 year old mimic his father and say "smoke!"

However, my mom's health is also one of the reasons.... I'm really actually more pissed that I started again after quitting for 2 years.... but then again... If I was able to quit then... I can do it now.... I just got to quit eatting so much!!!!!!!!

FYI - The patch is a 7 week at 21 mg process then 2 weeks at 14 mg process then 2 at 7 mg etc... and then Pau... so being on the patch does cost a few bucks initially...however in the long run it pays off 1000 times!

[joshuatree]

Re: New smoking ban

I agree, Let the OWNER deside. If they want to go somewhere non-smoking that's cool. I will not fight them - I'll just go to a place for smokers. The law will not give us that freedom.

The law here shocks me as an American.

If the law exempted bars, nightclubs, and restaurants, would you then accept the rest of what the law stipulates? Just curious.

[SouthKona]

Re: New smoking ban

I wonder if the law came to pass because many smokers had in the past not shown self-restraint, and had often smoked around other people who wished to avoid tobacco smoke, thus raising the rile of non-smokers. If non-smokers could go to a family restaurant without cigarette smoke coming in from smoking areas, if non-smokers could navigate the airport without having to pass through smoke, if non-smokers could enter a supermarket without having to breath smoke from smokers who are lingering outside the door ... well, if the air was smoke-free in those sort of circumstance then perhaps there would not be the new law.

Perhaps it is the type of smokers that are unthoughtful that were the catalyst for the new law, and so now all businesses (including adult-only bars) and all smokers (even the considerate and courteous ones) now have new restrictions on them.

A few "bad apples" ruining it for the whole barrel sort-of-thing... humm, well, in this case it was many bad apples...

[GeckoGeek]

Re: New smoking ban

Miulang, our new law allows smoking in tobacco shops. People are allowed to smoke here, but if the owner of the tobacco shop opens a bar and the exact same people go there, smoking is not allowed. Does that make sense to you?

I'm guessing here, but I'd say that non-smokers as a rule don't go to tobacco shops. So tobacco shops were exempted. However, non-smokers do go to bars. If a tobacco shop opens a bar (I assume you are talking about adding a bar to an existing tobacco shop or else your argument makes no sense at all) then some new people may come in to drink at the bar. The logic for granting an exemption for tobacco shops is not lost as now they are no longer a store exclusively for smokers.

[Bard]

Re: New smoking ban

But why, Miulang, would you HAVE to be in a pool hall or a bar or a restaurant where smoking is allowed? I know, I know: You might have to if a job in one of those places were the only job you could get, and THAT is the ONE GOOD ARGUMENT for the existence of this law.

That's a great argument, but there's one flaw in it: it wasn't too many years ago that ALL bars, restaurants and office buildings allowed anyone to smoke anywhere. A few voluntarily set up "non smoking" areas where you'd get the recycled air from the smoking section. In my memory it wasn't until we got the full bans in restaurants that I started seeing completely smoke-free ones, and that gave people choices and made them think maybe it's something they want.

That's where the liberal part of this comes into play. I generally fall more towards the "live and let live" side of things but occasionally something has to get the ball rolling.

On the other hand, this current law in Hawai`i is probably a little overboard... But as a non-smoker with sensitivity to smoke (yes, all kinds, not just cigarettes... my lungs suck) I won't complain too much.

[1stwahine]

Re: New smoking ban

Hui! Everybody! I got a confession to make. I admitted to AlohaKine in PM last night that I still SMOKE. Unlike Manoa, I don't have the will power to quit even with losing my sense of smell. I am an Idiot. However, when I do go back out to Chinatown or in Public I will honor the New Law. There is no and's, if's or butt's about it. I respect the rights of those around me before and I will continue to do so after. Now more than ever because it is the LAW!

Auntie Lynn

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

If the law exempted bars, nightclubs, and restaurants, would you then accept the rest of what the law stipulates? Just curious.

Yes, and I would settle for just half of bars and niteclubs. Some bars serve great food, I just stopped going to restaurants in 2003 and ate at bar/restaurants instead. The 20 ft is excessive but I can see it is hard to enforce, requires people to "guess" what 20 ft is and few people complain as long as you're outside and the smoke's not going inside. Because of these reasons I just ignore it.

[scrivener]

Re: New smoking ban

I'm guessing here, but I'd say that non-smokers as a rule don't go to tobacco shops.

Exactly. But non-smokers are not banned from tobacco shops. So why is it not legal for the owner of a bar to say, "This bar exists for people who like to smoke, but non-smokers may enter if they wish?"

[AlohaKine]

Re: New smoking ban

Hui! Everybody! I got a confession to make. I admitted to AlohaKine in PM last night that I still SMOKE. Unlike Manoa, I don't have the will power to quit even with losing my sense of smell. I am an Idiot. However, when I do go back out to Chinatown or in Public I will honor the New Law. There is no and's, if's or butt's about it. I respect the rights of those around me before and I will continue to do so after. Now more than ever because it is the LAW!

Auntie Lynn

Thank you for ending the insults. I'am surprised that you do understand what I'am going through. The law is hardest on heavy smokers and barflies like me. I can live with the law most of the time, but NOT if I'am drinking.

I do brake the law intentionally, Sometimes even with pre-meditated colusion with the owner - like when I smoked a whole cigarette at the bar in plain view, the owner gave me permission.

I guess I'll always be a Yankee. Remember the "Boston Tea Party", an illegal act done by Americans to protest an unjust or unfair law. Or the "underground railroad" that illegally harbored escaped black slaves ( moral yet illegal ). I view resistance and braking of this draconian law as a part of my culture as an American, and there is all kinds of precidence for this American attitude.

Not everyone will agree on this law. I'm sure the British Merchant Captain was pissed when his product was destroyed, some people in Britian thought the Tea Tax was an excellent idea for raising revenue. Easy for them to think that way because it picks on Americans and not them.

[scrivener]

Re: New smoking ban

That's where the liberal part of this comes into play. I generally fall more towards the "live and let live" side of things but occasionally something has to get the ball rolling.

On the other hand, this current law in Hawai`i is probably a little overboard... But as a non-smoker with sensitivity to smoke (yes, all kinds, not just cigarettes... my lungs suck) I won't complain too much.

If you only complain about unjust laws that inconvenience you, may I suggest that you favor a "majority rule" government at the expense of "equal protection under the law?" I don't smoke, and this law will only make my life better, at least immediately. However, if we let unjust laws make our lives better, we begin down a slippery slope that soon leads to regulation of everything -- including stuff that will affect you. Do you want to live in a society that says some people are free while others are not, even if you're on the side that is free? I don't.

[Bard]

Re: New smoking ban

If you only complain about unjust laws that inconvenience you, may I suggest that you favor a "majority rule" government at the expense of "equal protection under the law?"

I knew this was coming no matter how I worded that part of my post. I honestly can't say I disagree with your point, and it probably is sort of hypocritical of me.

I guess what I was trying to say is that while I agree with the smokers that the law may be excessive, I support the spirit of it is trying to do. We get laws like this as ballot measures here all the time, that have the right idea but an awful implementation, and they almost always get voted out for that reason (or overturned by a court later). Speaking of "free speech" there was a great case in point recently with some ballot measures limiting campaign financing from third parties. So full of loopholes that you could drive a truckload of cash through them, but they'd hurt a lot of smaller opposition groups that work above-board right now. Lots of groups you'd think would be supporting them lined up against them.

So yeah.. I think know what you mean...

As someone who supports private property rights, it does bother me that the gov is trying to tell people what to do with their property. As someone who is against smoking, I like it. So I guess I hold two conflicting opinions. Right now my easy breathing is winning the battle over which one to listen to. I'm not sure that's a great position but it's what it is.

Waiting for TimKona to chime now about "cog diss"