Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

[alohabear]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Perhaps Hawaiians need to be saved from cheesy gravy burgers.

It was all a plot to kill them off! Look at the basic Hawaiian diet, very healthy. Now introduce them to foreign foods and which group in Hawaii has the most health problems due to diet? Hmmmm.....

[PoiBoy]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

We are still waiting for you Keanu to answer Tim's question.... Quote:
What is it about SOME Hawaiians that makes them naturally unable to compete and make it in the world?

In the world? naw...see you folks are so narrow minded. You think that a system that you promote fits all indigenous people around the world?

Kanaka just as my Kagaka are people of the land...they live off the land....they are the land.

Western way of life/Western capitalism is foreign to Kanaka....many Kanaka have adapted and good on them. Some have not and that is understandable....they have lived their way of life for thousands of years and then all of a sudden had a foreign system "forced upon" them.

In western eyes my people were lazy...cuz we lived off our land and slaved away to no one. We were considered lazy cuz they could not exploit us.

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

In the world? naw...see you folks are so narrow minded. You think that a system that you promote fits all indigenous people around the world?

Kanaka just as my Kagaka are people of the land...they live off the land....they are the land.

Western way of life/Western capitalism is foreign to Kanaka....many Kanaka have adapted and good on them. Some have not and that is understandable....they have lived their way of life for thousands of years and then all of a sudden had a foreign system "forced upon" them.

In western eyes my people were lazy...cuz we lived off our land and slaved away to no one. We were considered lazy cuz they could not exploit us.

PoiBoi gets an A+



People like Tim don't know any better. They think their ideology supercedes that of everyone else. Then they have the utter audacity to bitch when their perspectives don't apply. It's quite comical.

My response to Tim's presumption is still forthcoming.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Part of the problem is that some people will automatically insist that, as males of European ancestry, folks like Tim (and myself) can NEVER understand the perspectives of a non-European culture. No matter what we do, say or learn, we haoles can not fully grasp a kanaka mindset.

On one hand, I would say that's correct. No one who is not a product of a specific cultural upbringing will ever be fully knowledgable of that culture. You could focus that to an individual extreme - no one who has not lived my life, experienced my upbringing, absorbed my influences during my life can truly understand what it feels like to be "me."

But on the other hand, there is an element of bullsh!t to the first paragraph, in that there is no single mindset that can be applied equally all across a culture. Yes, there are ways, behaviors, beliefs, values that are common to many, if not most, members of a cultural group. But they cannot be assigned to all.

Tim points out that, from his own neighborhood, there are kanaka who would likely reject welfare efforts, preferring to prove that they can succeed without handouts. PoiBoy notes that there are some in his culture who are comfortable within a capitalist system that was imposed upon them, while others say "no, thank you - we do just fine in our fashion and don't really care whether it fits your structure or not."

There are too many generalizations being made in this discussion, on different sides. Tim does not see the value of entitlement programs for any ethnic group, as he feels everyone should be judged on an equal playing field, with no special concessions for anyone. Others see the playing field as presently un-equal (for historical reasons, primarily), and view said programs as attempts to rectify the imbalance. These are not mutually exclusive concepts - unless you insist that one be "right" and the other "wrong."

Cognitive dissonance or flexibility of perspective?

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Tim points out that, from his own neighborhood, there are kanaka who would likely reject welfare efforts, preferring to prove that they can succeed without handouts.

Prove what and to whom though? Tim somehow thinks that the Hawaiians he referenced are the rule rather than the exception. Fwiw, I don't think either side is the rule or the exception. The fact of the matter is that these programs have been in existence for many years. They were created to ensure that Hawaiians would always have a place in their ancestral homeland. Hawaiians have lived in these homes for many years. A good majority of those that live in Hawaiian home lands are elderly. I find it incredibly offensive that Tim thinks it's a good idea to kick Kupuna out of their homes just so they can "prove" to him and his ilk that they can succeed in his BS capitalist utopia. How in the hell is someone supposed to buy a 600,000 house or 300,000 shitty condo on a freaking retirement check and why would they want to when more viable housing is already an option? Hawaiians didn't raise the cost of real estate. Money hungry assholes brought their game to Hawaii and now morons like Tim bitch that Hawaiians don't want to play. Why should they move out of their homes so they can pay to live in haoleville?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Tim somehow thinks that the Hawaiians he referenced are the rule rather than the exception.

If that's all he has ever experienced, then you can understand his point of reference; you don't have to agree with it, or call him "moron" for it.

Keanu - I'm likely to be on your side of this debate, politically speaking, but moving into a frustrated realm of insults doesn't strengthen the case - a case that you've been promising to expand upon for several days now. It's time to share your research and offer up your response to Tim. Please do - I'm very much looking forward to reading it; I expect it will be thorough and thoughtful.

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

If that's all he has ever experienced, then you can understand his point of reference; you don't have to agree with it, or call him "moron" for it.

It's not his point of reference that's the problem, it's his unwillingness to be open to anything BUT his point of reference.

Keanu - I'm likely to be on your side of this debate, politically speaking, but moving into a frustrated realm of insults doesn't strengthen the case

But it sure is fun.

- a case that you've been promising to expand upon for several days now. It's time to share your research and offer up your response to Tim. Please do - I'm very much looking forward to reading it; I expect it will be thorough and thoughtful.

I don't get paid to debate issues online. I get paid to do the people's work, not my own work so when I have time away from the office (like now on lunch break) I check in.

I'll respond to Tim's presumption soon enough. I'm suprised he hasn't gotten his knickers in a bunch yet.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

It's not his point of reference that's the problem, it's his unwillingness to be open to anything BUT his point of reference.

Frustrating as it may be, you can't force him to change it. Understanding his side can go a long way to getting him to see another side. I often disagree with him (and he with me), but I think we actually "get" where the other person is coming from. You're headed in that direction, too.

But it sure is fun.

Damn - but you're right (I can say, having been guilty of that before.) It still doesn't help, though.

I'm suprised he hasn't gotten his knickers in a bunch yet.

He did say he was a patient man. Guess I'm not so much. I'll still be ready to read when you're ready to share, and thanks.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Perhaps Hawaiians need to be saved from cheesy gravy burgers.

Or the reverse.

[Lei K]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

How in the hell is someone supposed to buy a 600,000 house or 300,000 shitty condo on a freaking retirement check and why would they want to when more viable housing is already an option? Hawaiians didn't raise the cost of real estate. Money hungry assholes brought their game to Hawaii and now morons like Tim bitch that Hawaiians don't want to play. Why should they move out of their homes so they can pay to live in haoleville?

Sad and true all at the same time, I understand you Keanu. Though I will leave the "like Tim" part out because I stay nice li 'dat.

I think the main point is to help Hawaiians stay in their ancestral homelands, what is Hawai`i without Hawaiians? I get very saddened by the amount of hard working people of Hawaiian ancestry who HAVE TO move to the mainland to make it. Their hearts aching for their home, but their wallets not allowing them to go back to a place their 'ohana has always been. For the record these people aren't "lazy." Well, unless you count my brother.

I grew up poor, my father wasn't always around (til later in life) which left my poor Hawaiian mother alone to raise us the best she could. Growing up my mother never realized she herself was poor, but she was. I remember only a few years ago we were out with my tutu who exclaimed she really would love to have some ice cream. My mom says, "But you don't like ice cream, you said so when we were kids." My tutu starts crying and says, "It's because we couldn't afford for us AND you kids to have ice cream, so I acted like I didn't like it, so you didn't know."

My grandparents worked hard and it was never put "out there" that they didn't have much money. Besides, they were always rich in 'ohana which is what counts the most. People aren't born equal, and mom always worked hard, tried her best, just like she was raised to do. Tutu did what she could by helping raise us while mom worked, and then worked more.

If there are programs to help a native daughter like her buy a home, when it would be impossible to do so otherwise, why not? Why should she move away from her ancestral homeland to provide a better life for us or die on a waiting list for a home? She's just another "displaced Hawaiian" on a list of them that keeps growing and growing. Tutu is getting older, mom cries often because she can't move back home. Mom is very sick herself, she's actually healthier when she visits back home because she feels whole. She can't afford to buy in O'ahu at 61 years old.

It would be nice to keep some more Hawaiians in Hawai`i, wouldn't it?

I feel like many Hawaiians would like to live how PoiBoy talks of his Samoan people, off the land and simple, beautiful. Some Hawaiians still manage to do this on islands other than O'ahu, but for how long?

To live that way one cannot afford to stay in da 'aina, it's either conform and compete or get out of the way and let someone who "works harder" own what you obviously don't deserve since you are "lazy." Your way of life, that's been that way for, well forever, is wrong. Stop it!

This concept has really wrecked havoc in my own 'ohana. Currently we haven't had lu'au in ages because other than my mother everyone else still lives back home and guess what? Some work 2 jobs to do so or work crazy hours and don't have as much time to live life how they want to. No can be simple when no can be home, work, work, work lazy Kanakas or get ouuuut. And by the way, quit b*tching about it.

[Lei K]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Or the reverse.

Hey I resemble that remark. Mmmmm cheesey gravy burgers. My heart aches in more ways than one over the thought.

[waioli kai]

crappolla justUS and capitalUSism ... Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

.

--Tim does not see the value of entitlement programs for any ethnic group, as he feels everyone should be judged on an equal playing field, with no special concessions for anyone.-- Leo

You are being too generous with the parameters of tkona logic. He most most definitely feels the value of entitlement structures for his ethnic group at the same time he refuses to acknowledge that such structures are entitlements benefitting almost exclusively his ethnic and age group. As for tkona's feeling that "an equal playing field" is the kind of socio-economic environment characterizing life under the banner of the United States of America....well that notion is just pure crappola that only a beneficiary of justUS and capitalUSism could judge to be palatable.

And as an aside, I don't believe for a moment that tkona experiences or has experienced any blessings from Hawai'ians. His idea of what is Hawai'ian is a figment of his worn-out and shallow imagination.

[joshuatree]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

She's just another "displaced Hawaiian" on a list of them that keeps growing and growing.

Curious, do you believe if Hawaii was never overthrown and retained its independence, that in today's world, Hawaii would never have experienced any plights or hardships that would displace Hawaiians?

I feel like many Hawaiians would like to live how PoiBoy talks of his Samoan people, off the land and simple, beautiful. Some Hawaiians still manage to do this on islands other than O'ahu, but for how long?

Here's a scenario I like to see what you think. Obviously, to say kick out every non native from the islands would be unrealistic. So if some of the islands were given back to native Hawaiians, do you think that would be a compromise people can live with?

To live that way one cannot afford to stay in da 'aina, it's either conform and compete or get out of the way and let someone who "works harder" own what you obviously don't deserve since you are "lazy." Your way of life, that's been that way for, well forever, is wrong. Stop it!

This concept has really wrecked havoc in my own 'ohana. Currently we haven't had lu'au in ages because other than my mother everyone else still lives back home and guess what? Some work 2 jobs to do so or work crazy hours and don't have as much time to live life how they want to. No can be simple when no can be home, work, work, work lazy Kanakas or get ouuuut. And by the way, quit b*tching about it.

I'm not sure this is really the way of the haole either. Back in the 50s, it was the standard for a one income family, the stereotypical bread winning dad and the homemaker mom. But globalization has forced more and more families to become two income households. Also, the nuclear family is getting smaller and smaller, just the parents and kids. Extended relatives no longer live under the same roof. You see this trend in any part of the world now.

[timkona]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

I'm not against all entitlement programs. We should use criteria such as economic hardship, or academic achievement (either low or high), or medical necessity, or other non-racial reasons to distribute the money around.

Some folks don't need help in life. Some folks do. This is true regardless of one's race.

So if there is some poor Aunty who needs a place to live, then my heart is breaking, and I'm in favor of a couple different solutions to get a roof over her head, and her family.

If you got an immigrant family with children in grammar school, then I'm there on Thursday mornings to read to them and help them learn. (That's a fact right now in my life)

If somebody needs medicine or a visit to the doctor, ..... well, the US is failing miserably in that department. But we sure do have enough money to fight the War on Drugs.

If we don't have enough dwellings to accomodate the population at ALL price ranges, then I'm for firing a nail gun, and building smarter communities, that are not all spread out and car-dependent.

I don't need any assistance in my life right now. Lucky me. (prayer) And I'm happy to pay some taxes along the way. I hope that some of my tax money is being spent to help lots of different folks who need lots of different things. And I hope, most especially, that anybody who is struggling a little gets some help without any regard to the color of their skin or the purity of their pedigree.

[Lei K]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Mahalo for your questions Joshuatree.

Curious, do you believe if Hawaii was never overthrown and retained its independence, that in today's world, Hawaii would never have experienced any plights or hardships that would displace Hawaiians?

It's not that I think that life would be some fantasy world where every native still lived home. I do believe that less would have been displaced if their country was still in tact. I don't believe that it would be getting to the point it is now where more Hawaiians are living on the CONUS than in their ancestral homelands. I think it's a sad day when any place starts to lose their indigenous peoples.

Here's a scenario I like to see what you think. Obviously, to say kick out every non native from the islands would be unrealistic. So if some of the islands were given back to native Hawaiians, do you think that would be a compromise people can live with?

I can't speak for every Hawaiian/part Hawaiian out there. But my mana'o on this is that the majority wouldn't want to kick out non natives to begin with.

What if Hawaiians were given some islands back? Some could probably live with that and be quite happy while others wouldn't step down until there is complete restoration of the kingdom.

I'm not sure this is really the way of the haole either. Back in the 50s, it was the standard for a one income family, the stereotypical bread winning dad and the homemaker mom. But globalization has forced more and more families to become two income households. Also, the nuclear family is getting smaller and smaller, just the parents and kids. Extended relatives no longer live under the same roof. You see this trend in any part of the world now.

Just because it's a trend in the CONUS doesn't mean it should happen to the Kanaka Maoli, does it? I don't get why indigenous people have to conform and go through exactly what everyone else in the western world does. I don't understand the "everyone else is doing it, you need to" mentality. Wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if Hawai`i worked to preserve the ways of life of their own native people? I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as allowing a people native to this place (many of you love) to live where they belong. So many claim to love the 'aina, it's culture, it's traditions, it's people, but soon enough gonna be no more Hawaiians there to be kumu or to live in a traditional way.