Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

[admin]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Please use the multi-quote function and edit your posts to add to your thoughts if you're still within the edit window. Do not post multiple consecutive messages to respond to a series of comments, in other words. Combine them.

I frequently merge posts for y'all, but the end result isn't always ideal and heaven knows something could get lost in the shuffle. If you find new messages keep turning up while you were busy responding to an older one, that might be a good sign to take a break from the thread.

[craig foo]

Re: today's unions are crappola capitalist addiction , Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapte

Craig, serious question here, do you think socialism or communism would be any better ?

Communist theory is best. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! Is that clear enough?

[joshuatree]

Re: today's unions are crappola capitalist addiction , Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapte

Communist theory is best. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! Is that clear enough?

But that's still theory, don't think it fared too well in reality.

[anapuni808]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

This isn't the first time an inter-island boat service has been in use - but that other one couldn't carry cars, only people. But it sure was fun, travelling by water instead of flying.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

I don't know when they started the poll, but I see that 14,028 people have voted already and it's running 80% FOR the SuperFerry and only 20% against.

I wrote that six hours ago, and just now checked the poll results again. Verrrrry interesting.
The disclaimer on that page says:

One vote per person, please. Multiple votes will be deleted. Note: Vote tallies may change during the week, as attempts to manipulate the voting are discovered and deleted.

And that clearly happened. Now, six hours after the figures I quoted above, the poll shows that 11,455 have voted... so there were about 2,500 multiple votes from people trying to skew the results.
But even more interesting is that the corrected tally after removing the fraudulent votes is now 85% FOR the SuperFerry (up from 80% earlier) and 15% against it (down from 20% earlier).
Clearly the holier-than-thou anti-ferry group tried to scam the poll.
The numbers don't lie.
Somehow, this behavior on the part of the anti's doesn't surprise me.

[tutusue]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

[...]Clearly the holier-than-thou anti-ferry group tried to scam the poll.[...]

<untechie tutu hat on> Once I voted the poll doesn't allow me to vote again. How does one stuff the cyber-ballot-box, so to speak?

[craig foo]

Re: today's unions are crappola capitalist addiction , Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapte

" Communist theory is best. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. "

But that's still theory, don't think it fared too well in reality.

Another topical thread may be in order, but not exactly being of the creative nature I'll continue here:

In reality, thus far, it has yet to appear in a socio-economic system for which it was predicted/prophesied/expected-to-be-manifested.

[TuNnL]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

<untechie tutu hat on> Once I voted the poll doesn't allow me to vote again. How does one stuff the cyber-ballot-box, so to speak?

Hmmm... should I or shouldn’t I tell you? *cackles fiendishly* I believe if you clear your browser’s cookies and get a different IP address assigned to you by your ISP, you should be able to register another vote. That’s just in theory, though. Clearly the Honolulu Star-Bulletin detected what they are doing and are taking corrective measures.

[Keanu]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

As they say in the commercials... "But wait. There's more!"
There was this story in the Advertiser last Thursday (scroll down to the fourth item), and here's an excerpt:

And no mention of an EIS, or of any plans to halt invasive species, or...

Did the state use state funds to make improvements at the Honolulu International Airport or the Lihue Airport for the primary benefit of Alaska Airlines?

A lot of you are trying to make an argument that cannot be made, not with a straight face anyway.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

<untechie tutu hat on> Once I voted the poll doesn't allow me to vote again. How does one stuff the cyber-ballot-box, so to speak?

The Star-Bulletin didn't check each vote as they came in, but instead they apparently ran a check later, comparing ISP's for each vote and catching the anti-SuperFerry scammers.
Since roughly 20% of the early votes were scams, I believe the SB has increased the frequency of its checks.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

The key to Cardoza's ruling was that HSF was a "new technology" for Hawai'i by virtue of the fact that it carries both cars and passengers (none of the other modes of transportation in Hawai'i does that) even though car ferries have existed elsewhere for a long time. The reason why Alaska airlines didn't have to do an EA/EIS is because no additional facilities were required for them to bring their planes to Hawai'i and because airplanes as a mode of transportation existed previously.

Now I have a serious question for all the people who want HSF to run without an EA/EIS. Although I have serious doubts that this will happen ultimately (too many political futures at stake here), but assuming HSF is given the green light to run while an EIS is conducted over a couple of years: how many of you are willing to commit to making at least one round trip a month on HSF (your island of choice)? Because that's what it's going to take to keep HSF in Hawai'i. You can't just ride it once and expect that it's going to be here forever. After the initial curiosity about a trip wears off, will many of you venture aboard the decks of the Alakai in the middle of winter? There have been some calculations made on the basis of what HSF has said it needs for load factors that show that it will still be running in the red (sound like another mode of transportation?) to the tune of millions of dollars. And we all know that the HSF investors are not an eleemosynary organization that is running for the good of the people. Or perhaps you need to start saving some of your tax money because it may just come down to if you want to keep it, you might have to end up subsidizing it in perpetuity, like you do The Bus.

Miulang

[infinitypro]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

The key to Cardoza's ruling was that HSF was a "new technology" for Hawai'i by virtue of the fact that it carries both cars and passengers (none of the other modes of transportation in Hawai'i does that) even though car ferries have existed elsewhere for a long time. The reason why Alaska airlines didn't have to do an EA/EIS is because no additional facilities were required for them to bring their planes to Hawai'i and because airplanes as a mode of transportation existed previously.

Now I have a serious question for all the people who want HSF to run without an EA/EIS. Although I have serious doubts that this will happen ultimately (too many political futures at stake here), but assuming HSF is given the green light to run while an EIS is conducted over a couple of years: how many of you are willing to commit to making at least one round trip a month on HSF (your island of choice)? Because that's what it's going to take to keep HSF in Hawai'i. You can't just ride it once and expect that it's going to be here forever. After the initial curiosity about a trip wears off, will many of you venture aboard the decks of the Alakai in the middle of winter? There have been some calculations made on the basis of what HSF has said it needs for load factors that show that it will still be running in the red (sound like another mode of transportation?) to the tune of millions of dollars. And we all know that the HSF investors are not an eleemosynary organization that is running for the good of the people.

Miulang

You asked and sorta answered your own question to sway?

Regardless, YES I would have paid for a RT Superferry plus vehicle once per month at a minimum .

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Now I have a serious question .....

Does it really matter how many times people would ride the boat? Most pro-ferry folks are simply wishing for the boat to be given a chance. From there, it's all about the market economy. If they can't get themselves out of the red, then it's the same as every business that closes down. No one is asking to subsidize them, it's not The Bus which is public transportation.

The key to Cardoza's ruling was that HSF was a "new technology"...

As to new technology, how is it new? We are moving goods between the same islands, we are moving people between the same islands, we have other vessels out there with such speeds (speedboats and jet skis). Just because you put the three together does not equate to new technology. Are people that thrown off just because it does all three items at once?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Does it really matter how many times people would ride the boat? Most pro-ferry folks are simply wishing for the boat to be given a chance. From there, it's all about the market economy. If they can't get themselves out of the red, then it's the same as every business that closes down. No one is asking to subsidize them, it's not The Bus which is public transportation.

If people want the service badly enough...i.e. it becomes a necessity, they will patronize it often enough to make it financially viable; otherwise, why go through the expense of calling the special session? Why make all the exceptions to the laws? And what happens if the boat goes under while the EIS is being completed? Wouldn't that make the state look even more stupid?

As to new technology, how is it new? We are moving goods between the same islands, we are moving people between the same islands, we have other vessels out there with such speeds (speedboats and jet skis). Just because you put the three together does not equate to new technology. Are people that thrown off just because it does all three items at once?

You answered your own question, Joshua. Yes, barges move cargo, small passenger boats go at high speeds. Jetskis are not allowed in the NMS during whale season. None of the other high speed boats are as large as HSF. Speed + volume kills. A power boat crashing into a whale will likely injure it but not kill it (more likely it will kill the people in the boat).Whale watching boats may bump into whales periodically. But because it's the whales they are looking for and because federal rules require being 100 yds away from the whales, they generally will idle while the whales are nearby; the HSF will not. Its intention is not to watch whales. I do think there should also be a limit to the number of whale watching boats that are licensed too.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

If people want the service badly enough...i.e. it becomes a necessity, they will patronize it often enough to make it financially viable; otherwise, why go through the expense of calling the special session? Why make all the exceptions to the laws? And what happens if the boat goes under while the EIS is being completed? Wouldn't that make the state look even more stupid?

If there is demand, the service will thrive. So again, why worry as in your previous post about how often people will use the ferry? The special session isn't to subsidize the ferry, it's to correct the fumbles made by the state in vouching to the ferry it can proceed without an EA/EIS and then backtracking. The implications go beyond this boat because the business community will be evaluating just how reliable is the state's word. HSF did not drop the ball on this one. You can think how evil their intentions may be but at the end of the day, they did everything required by the state. As for more stupid, so ordering an EA while HSF packs up isn't stupid looking? I think that's even worse. If the ferry can't make money on its own accord, it's not the state's fault. But right now, it definitely is the state's fault.

You answered your own question, Joshua. Yes, barges move cargo, small passenger boats go at high speeds. Jetskis are not allowed in the NMS during whale season. None of the other high speed boats are as large as HSF. Speed + volume kills. A power boat crashing into a whale will likely injure it but not kill it (more likely it will kill the people in the boat).Whale watching boats may bump into whales periodically. But because it's the whales they are looking for and because federal rules require being 100 yds away from the whales, they generally will idle while the whales are nearby; the HSF will not. Its intention is not to watch whales. I do think there should also be a limit to the number of whale watching boats that are licensed too.

Indeed I answered my own question, which is there is no new technology involved here. You sure sound very confident that a power boat crashing into a whale won't kill it, nevermind the fact that speed boats have propellers thrashing in the water in addition to the speed. I fail to see how it's OK for whale watching boats to bump into whales periodically. You seem to have forgotten HSF's policy which is to change course and steer away if a whale is spotted, not remain idle.