Organ donors, where are you?

[Composite 2992]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

Had your doctors not pumped you full of painkillers, though, you would have been feeling pain. And even though YOU weren't feeling it, it still registers on your EEG. Your receptors just don't give your nerves the message that you're in pain.

The sensation of pain goes from the extremities to the brain. Not the other way around.

The system the surgeon installed (Accufuser) put the painkiller directly at the site of the incision. "Pain" never even gets into the nervous system, so the brain wouldn't have registered it at all. It's the chemical equivalent of a nerve amputation.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

I dunno...I clicked on those links and nothing was clear.

This comes from another site (ok, some of the posters are very strange), which by chance, I visited before I saw this thread....

.................................................. .................................................. ...

HERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BRAIN DEAD" AND THE BRAIN DEAD DO FEEL PAIN!

Never be a "DONOR" THEY BUTCHER YOU ALIVE WITHOUT ANESTHESIA!!! "Donor organs" are NOT taken from really DEAD people, that would be called "cadaver" organs and THEY DO NOT USE CADAVER ORGANS!!

What a horrific, cruel, diabolic thing to do to someone you claim to have loved! To have their last experience in life to be butchered alive without anesthesia.

Lately because so many of these people REFUSE TO BE STILL while they are being butchered the doctors have taken to injecting them with CURARE to totally paralyze their muscles (but it does NOT anesthesize them, they still feel all pain but cant bat an eyelash or move anything) while they chop them up alive SO THE NURSES AND OPERATING STAFF NO LONGER RUN OUT OF THE ROOM OR HAVE NIGHTMARES OF THE "PROCEDURE" BECAUSE OF PATIENT MOVEMENT.

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Could this be true? Or partly true?

I'd like to think not, as donations are a good thing for the recipients....but I've heard stuff like this before.

(and , no, I am NOT a member of that site)

susie, the kind of people who put up false information like that are the same people who lie about bone marrow and blood donations. scum of the earth for whom the perfect punishment in hell would be the kind of treatment they falsely claim happens during organ/blood/marrow donations. people i work with fight against this kind of determined, evil ignorance all the time. you wouldn't believe the ugly flotsam of crap is said at donor drives.

what is a more relevant concern is the sale of organs. that, however, is for another thread, another time, and another writer to start.

[surlygirly]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

Had your doctors not pumped you full of painkillers, though, you would have been feeling pain. And even though YOU weren't feeling it, it still registers on your EEG. Your receptors just don't give your nerves the message that you're in pain.

But yeah, there's the whole breathing on your own. I mean, they administer LOTS of tests. This isn't something doctors take lightly. Nor should they.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

When I went through surgery I don't recall feeling any pain. And I wasn't brain dead.

In fact even for days afterward I was very comfortable due to the pain killers administered directly to the site of the incision.

So I don't know if feeling pain is a good indicator of life or death.

". . . running the little wheely with spikes over the skin (I'm sure there's a technical name for that instrument, but I don't know it). . . "

That's known as a pizza cutter. :-)

One measure is whether a patient will breathe on their own without a respirator. If not, then an advance directive might say "no life support". The premise is that if one can't survive without extensive outside help, then it's best to let 'em go. Still, that's a hard choice.

Everyone has to make their own decision about what they might want done. I had to emphasize a "DNR" request for my wife's ex-father-in-law when he was doing poorly with congestive heart failure. The man's wife couldn't get the doctor to understand the advance directive despite the existing paperwork. I finally had to talk to the doctor and let him know that we understood what he was trying to do, but the doctor had to realize that he can't win them all. It was OK to let this man go (who had a very long history with a weakening heart), and the best thing he could do was to make the patient as comfortable as possible in his last hours.

So the doctor suggested increasing the morphine to ease the patient's distress, saying that it could interfere with his breathing. I said OK, and thanked him for his consideration. The doctor and I both understood what it really meant. It was what the man wanted, and what the wife wanted, too.

[Adri]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

I really don't believe that's correct. When testing for brain activity, the tests include things like pricking the patient, running the little wheely with spikes over the skin (I'm sure there's a technical name for that instrument, but I don't know it), and putting cold water in the ears. If a person could feel pain, their EEG would measure brain activity, even a small amount. I'm taking classes that overlap with neurology, and it's been a while since I've been in the classroom (since last summer), but your brain registers pain and it WOULD show up on the EEG. /snip

That's true. I didn't mention it because I could see how it might freak out some people but part of the testing for brain activity is to see if the person can feel pain by measuring brain wave activity in response to painful stimuli. In the case of my family member, they poked something under his fingernail to see if it provoked any brain wave activity. At the time I thought surely there must be a better way of testing and I was unhappy with the thought that he might be feeling that pain while he was helpless during the process of determining when he was brain dead but it is part of the doctors making very sure he wasn't feeling anything and he really was brain dead because response to pain is a basic brain function.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

ummmmm....okay. thanks for the passionate post, frankie. you even decorated it with big letters and bold font! awesome!

let me summarize the important points of this thread for everyone, and leave frankie to finding fault with something i say here so he can enjoy working himself into a frenzy:

Where did I ever "find fault" with anything you said in this thread? Do tell me.

Morevore, did I not concur with your statement that it is a good idea for anyone to receive CPR training? I quote myself, "Oh, absolutely."

Gee, I offer agreement and support for what you wrote,.... and this is the thanks I get.

Did you have a problem with me offering a rational explanation on your observation about why there tends to be many non-medical personnel at certain hospitals being CPR certified? All right, then. Forget about what I said and may this phenomenon continue to be a strange mystery for everyone.

And if you have a problem with me using bold font, well, that's just a tool that the good folks on HT provide to emphasize certain points. If you're reduced to criticizing my use of font and short burst of capitals letters, I'll take it to mean that the substance of what I wrote is essentially correct.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. But I'm not afraid to defend myself against mischaracterizations, either.

[tutusue]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

[...]
HERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BRAIN DEAD" AND THE BRAIN DEAD DO FEEL PAIN!

Never be a "DONOR" THEY BUTCHER YOU ALIVE WITHOUT ANESTHESIA!!! "Donor organs" are NOT taken from really DEAD people,[...]

Then, imnsho, the same theory would hold true for an autopsy.

And, yes, Susie, I realize you quoted from a site you don't belong to!

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

Too bad Senate Bill 1347 that would have gotten money from private sources via some businesses choosing to get a special business license is likely not to get heard by committee this year. A really smart idea that would NOT have had to tap the general fund and would have given funds to promote organ donation.

Shame on Roz Baker and her buddies that blocked it. Hold your head in shame Baker. And let's not forget Baker's Maui medical outrage.

Is it blocked? I thought it was still in Committee (to where it was referred Jan. 30).

Description of Senate Bill 1347 (from the Legislature's website):
Allows smoking in properly licensed establishments. Requires collection of smoking establishment licensing fee with proceeds to go towards organ donation education and tobacco education.

[surlygirly]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

HERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BRAIN DEAD" AND THE BRAIN DEAD DO FEEL PAIN!


Could this be true? Or partly true?

I'd like to think not, as donations are a good thing for the recipients....but I've heard stuff like this before.

(and , no, I am NOT a member of that site)

I really don't believe that's correct. When testing for brain activity, the tests include things like pricking the patient, running the little wheely with spikes over the skin (I'm sure there's a technical name for that instrument, but I don't know it), and putting cold water in the ears. If a person could feel pain, their EEG would measure brain activity, even a small amount. I'm taking classes that overlap with neurology, and it's been a while since I've been in the classroom (since last summer), but your brain registers pain and it WOULD show up on the EEG.

Besides, the transplant team is completely seperate from the ER or ICU team. They aren't just lurking around in the halls waiting for someone to come rolling in. And think of it this way- that patient over there might live, but YOU are your doctor's patient. That doctor doesn't want you to die. My sister has been an ER trauma nurse for 15 years and says that the transplant team has rarely been called. It's a lengthy procedure to harvest organs.

As for me- I really don't care what happens to my body. I'm dead. Whatever's cheapest and helps people...go for it. Yes, I'm a donor.

If people don't want to be- that's their decision. But as someone upthread said, if it's out of fear, seek answers.

[AlohaKine]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

Too bad Senate Bill 1347 that would have gotten money from private sources via some businesses choosing to get a special business license is likely not to get heard by committee this year. A really smart idea that would NOT have had to tap the general fund and would have given funds to promote organ donation.

Shame on Roz Baker and her buddies that blocked it. Hold your head in shame Baker. And let's not forget Baker's Maui medical outrage.

[SusieMisajon]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

I dunno...I clicked on those links and nothing was clear.

This comes from another site (ok, some of the posters are very strange), which by chance, I visited before I saw this thread....

.................................................. .................................................. ...

HERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "BRAIN DEAD" AND THE BRAIN DEAD DO FEEL PAIN!

Never be a "DONOR" THEY BUTCHER YOU ALIVE WITHOUT ANESTHESIA!!! "Donor organs" are NOT taken from really DEAD people, that would be called "cadaver" organs and THEY DO NOT USE CADAVER ORGANS!!

What a horrific, cruel, diabolic thing to do to someone you claim to have loved! To have their last experience in life to be butchered alive without anesthesia.

Lately because so many of these people REFUSE TO BE STILL while they are being butchered the doctors have taken to injecting them with CURARE to totally paralyze their muscles (but it does NOT anesthesize them, they still feel all pain but cant bat an eyelash or move anything) while they chop them up alive SO THE NURSES AND OPERATING STAFF NO LONGER RUN OUT OF THE ROOM OR HAVE NIGHTMARES OF THE "PROCEDURE" BECAUSE OF PATIENT MOVEMENT.

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Could this be true? Or partly true?

I'd like to think not, as donations are a good thing for the recipients....but I've heard stuff like this before.

(and , no, I am NOT a member of that site)

[cynsaligia]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

All that is absolutely true. But just to make my original point again, because I don't want it to be clouded by all these other things: The reason why people should make every effort to regularly certify themselves for CPR is not because CPR techniques have changed. This is an important point, and I'll tell you why.

My company offers free CPR class to every employee. For some, it is mandatory. But it is also offered to anyone else who is interested. Of course, not everyone's circumstances allow for them to take the CPR class. That can't be helped. But there are others who can take the classes, but decline with the reasoning, "Are the Red Cross guys bringing the same videos and pamphlets from last year? Is the CPR technique still the same? It is? Ah, then I no need go!" It is this kind of complacent attitude that I was talking about.

Yes, CPR itself has largely remained the same over the years. Yes, that demonstration video might have been around for awhile. But just because you've gone through it once doesn't mean everything you learned will be instantly recalled several years down the road. That is why CPR certification lasts for 1 or 2 years at the max. No one gets 5 or 10 year certification..... and there's a reason for it. I just wanted to make sure that people know the correct reason.



Oh, absolutely.



I'm not surprised. Anytime a cardiac arrest takes place, EVERY SECOND IS CRITICAL! Someone suddenly collapses and stops breathing while they're in the parking garage,..... what good are all the doctors and nurses working inside the hospital if they can't get to the victim in time? OTOH, CPR certified parking attendants, security guards, and anyone else in a position to be a first responder can make a huge difference in such a scenario.

ummmmm....okay. thanks for the passionate post, frankie. you even decorated it with big letters and bold font! awesome!

let me summarize the important points of this thread for everyone, and leave frankie to finding fault with something i say here so he can enjoy working himself into a frenzy:

if you're inclined to be an organ donor, don't eliminate yourself from the donor pool just because you think no one would want your organs. i hope it's long before you are in that position, but if/when you are, the docs will put you through an evaluation process for fitness for donorship anyway. some part of you may be worth saving, and can be used to help someone else in need. and your loved ones can take comfort that even in death, you helped someone out. what better gift in death is there but the gift of life?

additionally, i understand the many reasons for hesitating to donate your organs upon your death, including the fear that your organs will be harvested prematurely (eg, before you're done with them). look up the FAQs at donate life america and the organ donor center of hawaii, talk to your physician, or shoot me a PM for more information to help you make an informed decision about this, one way or another.

learn cpr if you can, whether your job requires it or not. if you were certified before and it's expired and you are able to get into a class, great. all the better, since you'll be more confident in your skills and more likely to be successful at proper administration. but don't let the fact that your certification is old stop you from helping someone out if they're in need.

beyond that, unless some more substantial point of discussion comes up (frankie's predictably giving himself ventricular tachycardia has long ceased to inspire), i promise not to harp on the above points any further. have a great day, everyone, and thank you for giving thought to both organ donorship and CPR certification. *thumbs up*

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

i as for the CPR certification thing, here's the bottom line:

if you have ever been certified and have the time to be recertified and can actually get into a class to be recertified, by all means--get recertified and feel more confident in your skills. your loved ones will probably feel a bit more comfort knowing they have someone recently CPR-cerrtified in their midst.

if you were certified, say, five years ago, and (to quote WORN again) "someone who is down, not breathing, and pulseless," by all means, do not hesitate.

All that is absolutely true. But just to make my original point again, because I don't want it to be clouded by all these other things: The reason why people should make every effort to regularly certify themselves for CPR is not because CPR techniques have changed. This is an important point, and I'll tell you why.

My company offers free CPR class to every employee. For some, it is mandatory. But it is also offered to anyone else who is interested. Of course, not everyone's circumstances allow for them to take the CPR class. That can't be helped. But there are others who can take the classes, but decline with the reasoning, "Are the Red Cross guys bringing the same videos and pamphlets from last year? Is the CPR technique still the same? It is? Ah, then I no need go!" It is this kind of complacent attitude that I was talking about.

Yes, CPR itself has largely remained the same over the years. Yes, that demonstration video might have been around for awhile. But just because you've gone through it once doesn't mean everything you learned will be instantly recalled several years down the road. That is why CPR certification lasts for 1 or 2 years at the max. No one gets 5 or 10 year certification..... and there's a reason for it. I just wanted to make sure that people know the correct reason.

lastly, i think practically everyone works/lives in a situation where s/he may be called upon to act in an emergency, so learning CPR is a good thing for everyone (assuming you're a proper person to administer it).

Oh, absolutely.

you'd be surprised how many non-clinicians working in a hospital building or on the campus of a hospital building are CPR-certified, and it's not because work requires or requests it. i mean, it's not as if we have a shortage of doctors or nurses around, eh?

I'm not surprised. Anytime a cardiac arrest takes place, EVERY SECOND IS CRITICAL! Someone suddenly collapses and stops breathing while they're in the parking garage,..... what good are all the doctors and nurses working inside the hospital if they can't get to the victim in time? OTOH, CPR certified parking attendants, security guards, and anyone else in a position to be a first responder can make a huge difference in such a scenario.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

I think the bigger question is just when is the point of "no hope"? There have been cases when people have woken up after years, even decades in a coma. And given the limited lifespan of a organ, I don't think they wait for the body to get cold before the harvest. So at an emotional level, it just doesn't seem like the person is really dead yet....

i totally get that. it's been almost ten years since my mama (grandma) passed away, and it still doesn't completely seem like she's dead. it feels more like she's away on a long trip or something. of course, that's probably just how i've dealt with my grief. from when i was born til i moved out, mama was the person with whom i spent most of my life.

here's a phrase i've said many times: i'm not a clinician, like WORN is. regardless, i know there are comas...and then there are *comas*. brain activity is measurable and there is an official scale that MDs use to determine how likely it is that someone will recover meaningfully from brain injury.

i will admit it's a judgment call, like every other medical decision is. the thing is, most physicians really want the best outcome for their patients. as WORN correctly pointed out, MDs are there to win, and winning means that the patient recovers. a phrase i often read in death summaries where a patient hadn't asked not to be resuscitated is "herculean efforts." in other words, the team is trying its darndest to bring a person back. no one who works in healthcare ever wants a patient to die (unless that person is a nutcase). every time i run across a nurse who just had a patient move on is heartbroken, even in instances where the death was expected and maybe even welcomed by the patient. so the idea that any of my colleagues would be standing there with even the tiniest bit of eagerness over a patient's bed because the deceased's organs are about to be harvested is completely disconnected from reality.

as for the CPR certification thing, here's the bottom line:

if you have ever been certified and have the time to be recertified and can actually get into a class to be recertified, by all means--get recertified and feel more confident in your skills. your loved ones will probably feel a bit more comfort knowing they have someone recently CPR-cerrtified in their midst.

if you were certified, say, five years ago, and (to quote WORN again) "someone who is down, not breathing, and pulseless," by all means, do not hesitate. of course, if someone nearby declares they're a doctor or nurse or EMT, give way to them or move into an assisting position.

if you're afraid that you might somehow screw up and be sued for it, remember that there hawaii has a good samaritan law.

lastly, i think practically everyone works/lives in a situation where s/he may be called upon to act in an emergency, so learning CPR is a good thing for everyone (assuming you're a proper person to administer it). you'd be surprised how many non-clinicians working in a hospital building or on the campus of a hospital building are CPR-certified, and it's not because work requires or requests it. i mean, it's not as if we have a shortage of doctors or nurses around, eh?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Organ donors, where are you?

As for CPR, dear boy, it does not "take regular classes to stay current." CPR, in the last 30 years or so, IME, has remained pretty much consistent. The powers that be may have changed the compression/ventilation ratios a bit

The reason for the need to annually (or bi-annually, as the case may be) re-certify oneself for CPR isn't because of changes to CPR technique. The reason is mainly due to the fact that people can and do forget. Let's face it. Unless one works in the medical/rescue profession, most folks rarely (if ever) get a chance to practice their CPR skills.

It's true that having received CPR training 5 years ago is better than never having been trained at all. But if you work at a job where you might be called upon to act in an emergency, you stand a much better chance at saving someone's life if the technique is fresh in your mind and you have had recent opportunity for hands-on practice and repetition. Remember, you only have one chance at saving the life of a heart attack victim. It might even be a member of your family. Why squander it with a half-remembered attempt?