Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

[sinjin]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

It's the artist that should be held accountable for giving cultural offense.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

It's the artist that should be held accountable for giving cultural offense.

But isn't that something artists of all types have done for ages? Are you suggesting tattooists should be fined/jailed/beaten/ostracized for providing a service requested by their clients? Perhaps we should put them in stocks in the town square, as if they were prostitutes.

Blaming the artist, indeed. That's like suing fast-food restaurants for making people obese.

Oh, wait. That's happening anyway.

[sinjin]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

But isn't that something artists of all types have done for ages? Are you suggesting tattooists should be fined/jailed/beaten/ostracized for providing a service requested by their clients? Perhaps we should put them in stocks in the town square, as if they were prostitutes.

Blaming the artist, indeed. That's like suing fast-food restaurants for making people obese.

Oh, wait. That's happening anyway.

If tattooing can be likened today to fast food I'm troubled.
I'm suggesting that tattoo artists should be sensitive to the cultural/familial significance of certain patterns in the various Polynesian cultures. Clients need to be told no sometimes even if they're willing to pay. It's called artistic integrity.

[Pedro]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

But isn't that something artists of all types have done for ages? Are you suggesting tattooists should be fined/jailed/beaten/ostracized for providing a service requested by their clients? Perhaps we should put them in stocks in the town square, as if they were prostitutes.

Blaming the artist, indeed. That's like suing fast-food restaurants for making people obese.

Oh, wait. That's happening anyway.

I don't want to join the battle here but hearing everyone talk about tattoos and all, but since I use to draw before and still kind of do there's a difference between art and scholarly. Let make myself a little clearer art is about expressing one's self, without any one dictating as to how they are to do it. When I first started drawing as a kid I learned first to copy what I see, but that didn't mean it came out the way I wanted it to look like so in order to further advance my skills I learned to mimick other peoples styles and believe me there were many so I joined two stlyes of drawing together and added in my own personal touch to it until I thought it was my own, than it became the very center of my work, of what I stove to design. Including every artist that I ever known did the same. Than my art teacher came along and told me that what I drew was taken from others and to draw certain things her way which she declared was the right way acording to all the books which were also taken from other artist styles. So I did it to my distaste to make the grade which it came out to look horrible, she gave art a bad name. I wasn't comfortable with her design, that I hated art.

I thought Art is suppose to be a reflection of what you feel and that it's suppose to be a comfortable thing not something you were told to do because some scholarly person said it didn't fit the bill. So by all means I do not blame any artist for whaterve they design on people's arms chest and different body parts. It's the person who wants that drawing that inform the artist what they want and it's the job of the artist to know it and how to do it and the background behind the design to inform the customer what he's getting.

If you understand ART it's free and has no limitations, but yet I do understand what everyone is saying, but who are we to tell others what they can and cannot do? Regardless of what we say or do or believe. Honestly I don't like the idea of some one tatooing a polynesian design on his body when he doesn't have a drop of polynesian blood and his own words to having it is "because it looks cool." I can beat him up but that won't change the fact that just because I can hurt someone will alter the way he thinks, cause my gues is that there are a lot out there with the same thought on their mind "Cool"

I walked into a gas station to fill up my car and standing in the line was this dude with a tank top. On his right arm was a warrior band with a ku statue from the bishop museum in the center without the private parts in the middle, just like the statue. The private part to the Ku Statue was shaved off by the missionaries, I was infuriated because I knew the dude didn't do his homework but that's what he wanted. I just told him "Nice tattoo and the next time you get another do your homework." He looked at me weird and continued along with what he was doing. Oh well like I said ART is FREE and if he feels comfortable with it ROCK ON

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

I'm suggesting that tattoo artists should be sensitive to the cultural/familial significance of certain patterns in the various Polynesian cultures. Clients need to be told no sometimes even if they're willing to pay. It's called artist integrity.

Integrity, to an artist, means being true to your own muse. Creators of true art should work on a project until THEY (the artist) are satisfied with it, not some patron.

If you are crafting something artistic specifically as the paying client wishes it to be, integrity goes out the window. Sure, a culturally-aware tattooist ought to think about saying "no" to people who want ink that doesn't represent their own background, but there are a couple problems with this:

1) the obvious commercial one - the tattooist has to balance that out against the thought "if I turn down this guy, there goes my having enough money for tonight's dinner";

2) is it the tattooist's PLACE to demand cultural proof from their clients? We all know there are people with Hawaiian blood who don't "look" Hawaiian (same goes for any culture you like) - are we going to ask the tattoo parlors to run dna tests, or ask clients for "proof of cultural heritage" before they can begin their work? Will they be expected to attend classes to teach them about every single "cultural/familial significance of certain patterns in the various Polynesian cultures"? Why stop at Polynesian? Don't they also need to be schooled in all Asian, Celtic, Native American, African, Mayan and Inuit cultural designs?

If I'm going to wear a tattoo representative of a culture from which I do not descend, I had better be prepared to take personal responsibility for my decision, when confronted by someone of that culture who might take offense. Unless I think saying "hey, the tattoo guy shoulda warned me, sorry" will keep me from losing my teeth.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

If you want to restrict people to using traditional tattoo equipment, you should also restrict them to authentic Hawaiian tattoos.

Not Samoan, not Tongan, not Maori. Hawaiian.

Those arm bands that everyone and their brother likes to get? NOT authentic.

Keoni Nunes does traditional tattoos, but when a Jewish haole and his friend from A&E's "Miami Ink" came out to film an episode, he worked on both of them. He also took the time to get to know them a little bit, and designed tattoos for each one that had individual meaning.

so while everyone is BITCHING about gotta have blood, gotta be Hawaiian, to get one hawaiian tattoo you guys seem to have missed this post wayyyyy back at the begining....
neither one of those 2 guys get hawaiian blood but Keoni is considered a master of the art was willing to tattoo them with traditional tools and tapping it out.... he even went on to say during the episode that if Ami and Garver had turned out to be jerks he wouldnt have tattooed them....

so while everyone can have their opion on the subject I really think that if a master of hawaiian tattooing is willing to give traditional tattoos to a couple of HAOLES then that should make ppl stop and think.

family tattoos...thats pretty bad its like identity theft .... leave other ppls family stuffs alone

[sinjin]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

Integrity, to an artist, means being true to your own muse. Creators of true art should work on a project until THEY (the artist) are satisfied with it, not some patron.

We aren't talking about wholly original art.

If you are crafting something artistic specifically as the paying client wishes it to be, integrity goes out the window.

No it doesn't.

1) the obvious commercial one - the tattooist has to balance that out against the thought "if I turn down this guy, there goes my having enough money for tonight's dinner";

It's done all the time to minors with money. Same for facial/hand tattooing. Same with white supremecy symbolism.

2) is it the tattooist's PLACE to demand cultural proof from their clients? We all know there are people with Hawaiian blood who don't "look" Hawaiian (same goes for any culture you like) - are we going to ask the tattoo parlors to run dna tests, or ask clients for "proof of cultural heritage" before they can begin their work? Will they be expected to attend classes to teach them about every single "cultural/familial significance of certain patterns in the various Polynesian cultures"? Why stop at Polynesian? Don't they also need to be schooled in all Asian, Celtic, Native American, African, Mayan and Inuit cultural designs?

You're over the top now. I do not subscribe to the idea that one should only have ink related to your ancestry. But one has no right to tattoo someone else's family symbols or symbols specific to vocation or especially royalty because it looks cool. It's easy enough to do an derivative piece that should not offend. The situation with tattooing in the Pacific is unique. Celts did not tattoo the art we normal see today. Nor the NA. Asian? Broad but a westerner can get traditional Irezumi in Japan. I'm sure some imagery is off-limits as it may be "mafia" related. African? Like?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

If tattooing can be likened today to fast food I'm troubled.

Funny you should say that. Just after my previous posting, I sat down to some breakfast, and found an article in the August 7 issue of the Canadian magazine, Maclean's, called "Botched In Translation." In a discussion of errors in Asian characters used in tattoos, they had this paragraph:

To Tang (Tian Tang, whose blog Hanzismatter.com, tracks the misuse of Asian script in tattoos and elsewhere), who left China as a young teenager, this reeks of the American penchant for instant gratification - another example of a culture that likes its food fast, and its news summed up in a line. "Young people, they just pick a design, or they'll go to a Chinese restaurant and get someone to write something down," he says. "They just think a character from a Chinese language is a pretty picture. They don't understand, or care, that there's actual meaning attached to it."

A readable photo of the article is at http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne...9752991&size=l

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

We aren't talking about wholly original art.

Then don't bring the word "integrity" into the conversation, it's not applicable.

Same with white supremecy symbolism.

So, if I see this on someone and am offended by it, I should blame the tattooist? That's what your earlier statement says.

I do not subscribe to the idea that one should only have ink related to your ancestry. But one has no right to tattoo someone else's family symbols or symbols specific to vocation or especially royalty because it looks cool.

I'm sorry, sinjin, but that strikes me as a contradictory position. You are saying that you don't have to be limited to your own ancestry, but don't use someone else's either?

Let's refocus on your original post:

It's the artist that should be held accountable for giving cultural offense.

I have stated that I believe that to be an unreasonable approach, one that removes responsibility from the tattoo-ee (?), and I have expressed questions as to how you would recommend such a position to be carried out; you have yet to defend your statement - can you do so for me?

[sinjin]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

Then don't bring the word "integrity" into the conversation, it's not applicable.

What? If your muse leads you to plagiarize, ignore it.

So, if I see this on someone and am offended by it, I should blame the tattooist? That's what your earlier statement says.

Like your family crest on someone's ass?
The artist should know better. You can blame them both if you like.

I'm sorry, sinjin, but that strikes me as a contradictory position. You are saying that you don't have to be limited to your own ancestry, but don't use someone else's either?

Not all Polynesian tattooing is directly related to families or guilds. No contradiction. Stay general or take some inspiration is all I mean. Don't copy directly.

I have stated that I believe that to be an unreasonable approach, one that removes responsibility from the tattoo-ee (?), and I have expressed questions as to how you would recommend such a position to be carried out; you have yet to defend your statement - can you do so for me?

I must have missed your questions somehow. Suffice it to say that to create original art that borrows from a tradition might be fine for all but to steal/copy what may have specific meaning could be disrespectful. I'm not saying the collector shouldn't be aware and mindful, I'm saying the artist is part of a fraternity that brings responsibility or at least should.

Did I do something to p!ss you off? You're on fire today.

[Pedro]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

so while everyone is BITCHING about gotta have blood, gotta be Hawaiian, to get one hawaiian tattoo you guys seem to have missed this post wayyyyy back at the begining....
neither one of those 2 guys get hawaiian blood but Keoni is considered a master of the art was willing to tattoo them with traditional tools and tapping it out.... he even went on to say during the episode that if Ami and Garver had turned out to be jerks he wouldnt have tattooed them....

so while everyone can have their opion on the subject I really think that if a master of hawaiian tattooing is willing to give traditional tattoos to a couple of HAOLES then that should make ppl stop and think.

family tattoos...thats pretty bad its like identity theft .... leave other ppls family stuffs alone

I'll keep my mouth shut on this one your statement is true, and like I said ART is FREE!! I sadly shake my head to this post whatever happened to the friendly conversation of I have this tattooed on me but now, we're forced to talking about the politics of why, and taking up the offensive over it, while badgering everyone for having a polynesian design. Didn't the Hawaiian style of tattooing fade when the missionaries abolished it? And now that Keoni revived it, and all these artistisans are coming out of the wood works people are being scorned for not doing it the traditional style? versus the modern? What kind of crap is that?

Like MM said it's our bodies we can do with it the way want too. And when something else get's revived again are we going to be poking and telling eveyone that the what they are doing is wrong because they aren't doing it the right way the ancient style? And how in the Hell would they know? Have we not advanced and moved further than we are or are we still addled with the thought of wanting everything done the old fashion way? My goodness I guess this is the last thing I say on this particular thread, I am going to look at something else, that's a bit entertaining, you all can throw stone and rocks at each other fer all I care fer me I am out. PEACE!!!

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

Did I do something to p!ss you off? You're on fire today.

Nah, nah, nah - sorry to create that impression, sinjin. I just felt that your statement of responsibility puts too much burden on the tattooist, and absolves the individual hiring them. Thought it should be debated further, whch it was. I appreciate the further clarifications you made.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

I'll keep my mouth shut on this one your statement is true, and like I said ART is FREE!! I sadly shake my head to this post whatever happened to the friendly conversation of I have this tattooed on me but now, we're forced to talking about the politics of why, and taking up the offensive over it, while badgering everyone for having a polynesian design. Didn't the Hawaiian style of tattooing fade when the missionaries abolished it? And now that Keoni revived it, and all these artistisans are coming out of the wood works people are being scorned for not doing it the traditional style? versus the modern? What kind of crap is that?

Like MM said it's our bodies we can do with it the way want too. And when something else get's revived again are we going to be poking and telling eveyone that the what they are doing is wrong because they aren't doing it the right way the ancient style? And how in the Hell would they know? Have we not advanced and moved further than we are or are we still addled with the thought of wanting everything done the old fashion way? My goodness I guess this is the last thing I say on this particular thread, I am going to look at something else, that's a bit entertaining, you all can throw stone and rocks at each other fer all I care fer me I am out. PEACE!!!

my post was not an attack on anyone I just wanted to make others aware that hey you are missing a big point....
like you say art is free anyone can get it, do it, or create it, some are better than others...

If someone wants to put a tattoo on their body it usually means something I dont think many ppl intend to OFFEND ppl with their tattoos (well except that small minority).... I think the exception is with the young and dumb... and they pay for it later. I have 3 tattoos I intend to get 3-5 more I love um they represent me as a person and the things I have done in life. its how I choose to decorate myself LOL I hate makeup....

[Menehune Man]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

Just a Tattoo joke...
I'm getting mine "Menehune Man" within two weeks. Choice!

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Polynesian/Tribal Tattoos

http://www.wondermark.com/d/087.html
Post #2,000, btw.