Ethanol....

[Ms_Aloha_Nui]

Re: Ethanol....

Wow! We are truly an educated group here on HT...thank you again, all of you, for sharing....

[glossyp]

Re: Ethanol....

This article from the Times of London addresses the rising cost of food due to crops being used for fuel. Paragraph six tells the tale of the rising cost of tortilla woes from Mexico. The figure that 18% of current food acreage will be needed to meet EU bio-fuel requirements (in Europe, of course) is a huge re-direction of resources.

[Miulang]

Re: Ethanol....

This article from the Times of London addresses the rising cost of food due to crops being used for fuel. Paragraph six tells the tale of the rising cost of tortilla woes from Mexico. The figure that 18% of current food acreage will be needed to meet EU bio-fuel requirements (in Europe, of course) is a huge re-direction of resources.

Yeah, the situation really sucks. Imagine the Mexicans not having any corn tortillas to eat? Sheesh. Corn tortillas are a symbol of national identity for Mexicans like apple pie and hot dogs are for Americans! What makes it worse is I read somewhere that the varieties of corn used for biofuel are different from the varieties grown for human consumption. Eventually, will we be forced to choose between eating beef, pork or poultry and putting fuel in our car's gas tanks? A nation of unwilling vegetarians?

The production of palm oil (which, BTW, would make some really poor countries an awful lot of money) to use as a fuel source will require clearcutting lots of rainforests which would further degrade the environment. And some of the islands which today can produce the palm oil are sinking into the ocean due to rising water levels.

I'm still holding out for hydrogen fuel cells or a fuel source that's not plant-or petroleum-based. Somehow I have this feeling that the technology exists, but only needs to be tested and tweaked.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Ethanol....

The technology exists but none that has reached a commercially viable level of production, it costs too much presently. Fuel cells are great but the amount of energy needed to separate the components for fuel cells is a large amount. Maybe if we were all accepting of nuclear energy, then cheap electricity can be produced in large amounts with no greenhouse gases to power fuel cell production. The interesting thing is, countries like France don't generate as much nuclear waste as us because they recycle the waste back into fuel. The supposed downside is that this recycling creates plutonium and we all freak out because that's the stuff weapons are made of. Funny considering we probably have the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons on this planet.

I'm looking forward to the roll out of plug in hybrids. That would be a promising stop gap measure to make the most out of the existing petrol supplies.

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

I have been shying away from this thread, as I felt I had no sourcing for some of the things I'm sure I know about the big Ethanol lie.

Couple of things are facts.

Fact - Environmentalists, Warmongers, and Farmers all love the idea. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Fact - Ethanol added to gasoline results in an increased rate of evaporation for the resulting mixture.

Fact - Ecology professors from Cornell and Berkeley say ethanol is a net energy loser. And you know how those 2 universities would NEVER let politics skew perfectly good research.

Fact - Ethanol is a dessicant, which means it attracts water. Not good in tropical weather especially.

Fact - Water, being heavier than gas or alcohol, sinks to the bottom of your fuel tank, won't burn in your engine, and usually only happens 12 miles out by F buoy, with a strong current and tradewinds pushing you south.

Fact - Ethanol added to gasoline lowers the combustion temperature. Lower combustion temperatures produce less efficient combustion resulting in higher levels of unburned hydrocarbons, which as all you enviros know, is the big problem with the ozone layer. This fact is still being studied, but makes sense to me.

Now if an idea has the support of Enviro's AND Warmongers at the same time, with the most powerful lobby in America (the Farmers) agreeing, then I just gotta say that the FIX IS IN. If it smells like doo-doo, it's prolly doo-doo.

It is my not-so-humble opinion that the money spent on ethanol research would be better utilized to create energy storage technologies in the form of electricity. Solar Power is the answer to creating unlimited electricity. We already have electric cars, brand new, seats 4, for under $10000.


So what is really going on here would be my question.

[Miulang]

Re: Ethanol....

Hey Tim, you must be getting old...now you're actually saying NO to something?

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

After careful review, I was unable to find the word no anywhere in my last post. Maybe my age is causing blindness also, or dementia perhaps.

In addition to that, dear Miulang, rather than say no, I was simply outlining the case for various arguments concerning Ethanol, hoping that rational logic, and cognitive acuity would help folks see for themselves. I'm certain, that you, being a good environmentalist, and a logical person, are dead set against the idea of Ethanol as "alternative energy". Aren't you?

[Miulang]

Re: Ethanol....

After careful review, I was unable to find the word no anywhere in my last post. Maybe my age is causing blindness also, or dementia perhaps.

In addition to that, dear Miulang, rather than say no, I was simply outlining the case for various arguments concerning Ethanol, hoping that rational logic, and cognitive acuity would help folks see for themselves. I'm certain, that you, being a good environmentalist, and a logical person, are dead set against the idea of Ethanol as "alternative energy". Aren't you?

Not primarily because of environmental concerns. Won't touch the stuff unless someone points a gun to my head and forces me to use it because of many of the reasons you cite (or takes away all other alternatives). Plant based biofuels are diverting resources that should be used to feed people.

Your thoughtful listing of considerations ends with your opinion that the money for research being done on ethanol as an alternative fuel could be better used to investigate other sources of alternative energy, which implies a certain dislike for ethanol. If you were pro-ethanol, shouldn't you have included some facts about why it's a good alternative fuel too?

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Ethanol....

It is my not-so-humble opinion that the money spent on ethanol research would be better utilized to create energy storage technologies in the form of electricity. Solar Power is the answer to creating unlimited electricity. We already have electric cars, brand new, seats 4, for under $10000.

But solar power is limited by the sun setting. So how does that form the basis of a constant reliable source? I'm surprised why the Big Island has not pursued geothermal even further? As I understand, the current plant is a success, no? If the entire Big Island's electricity needs can be created from geothermal, that would be a huge leap in the state's attempt to wean off fossil fuel.

Which electric car under $10000? You referring to those Smart carts? I can't wait to see the US version of the Toyota Aygo. The diesel version gets about 68 MPG, all without any hybrid gizmos, just good old fashion transportation, no luxury items.

[Miulang]

Re: Ethanol....

But solar power is limited by the sun setting. So how does that form the basis of a constant reliable source? I'm surprised why the Big Island has not pursued geothermal even further? As I understand, the current plant is a success, no? If the entire Big Island's electricity needs can be created from geothermal, that would be a huge leap in the state's attempt to wean off fossil fuel.

Which electric car under $10000? You referring to those Smart carts? I can't wait to see the US version of the Toyota Aygo. The diesel version gets about 68 MPG, all without any hybrid gizmos, just good old fashion transportation, no luxury items.

These would be great in-city cars (would definitely help with parking! ) but my fear is of being crunched between 2 behemoth cars on the freeway. I guess for long distance travel, you'd have to resort to mass transit (which wouldn't be bad) or taking your own big car on the road. Now if everybody was forced to drive one of those teeny cars, then the roads would become very very safe because the playing field would be levelled. But I don't think some people would be willing to give up their big cars for anything short of being put in jail or in front of a firing squad.

Miulang

[waioli kai]

Plutonium, breeder reactor power vs. Ethanol ?

.

--The interesting thing is, countries like France don't generate as much nuclear waste as us because they recycle the waste back into fuel. The supposed downside is that this recycling creates plutonium and we all freak out because that's the stuff weapons are made of.--jtree

While it is true that plutonium fission bombs and plutonium triggers for nuclear and thermonuclear explosive devices are uses for plutonium the main reason that breeder reactors (which use plutonium instead of uranium in their reactors) were not extensively developed in the U.S. goes back to Jimmy Carter's presidency. Carter, a Navy nuclear engineer (possibly the best educated President the U.S. has ever had, at least on par with Thomas Jefferson), and his administration decided that it was not worth the risks associated with plutonium-based nuclear power plants in the United States that would necessitate the accumulation and transport of plutonium all over the U.S. Few substances in the known universe are as lethal to life as is plutonium whose half-life is around 10,000 years. The risks and the consequences of accidents, terrorism, sabotage involving even relatively small quantities of plutonium, muchless tons of the stuff, is incalculable. Should France ever suffer a major instance of plutonium dispersion inside their nation as a result of their energy dependence on the element there would be likely be a calamitous redistribution of the nation's population. Perhaps they would move France, the nation, to the Pacific and rename Tahiti.

[Miulang]

Re: Plutonium, breeder reactor power vs. Ethanol ?

The risks and the consequences of accidents, terrorism, sabotage involving even relatively small quantities of plutonium, muchless tons of the stuff, is incalculable. Should France ever suffer a major instance of plutonium dispersion inside their nation as a result of their energy dependence on the element there would be likely be a calamitous redistribution of the nation's population. Perhaps they would move France, the nation, to the Pacific and rename Tahiti.

What if humankind is only given a choice between running the risk of being blown to smithereens or cooked to death due to a nuclear accident or nuclear war vs. slowly starving to death over months or years because we have no food? Which option do you think the majority of people would choose? A relatively quick death or a slow, painful one?

Miulang

[waioli kai]

Plutonium

What if humankind is only given a choice between running the risk of being blown to smithereens or cooked to death due to a nuclear accident or nuclear war vs. slowly starving to death over months or years because we have no food? Which option do you think the majority of people would choose? A relatively quick death or a slow, painful one? Miulang

Barring some mass or supernova's cosmic energy ramming into us from Space or our Sun exploding I doubt that for the whole of humanity any death is going to be quick and relatively painless.

Plutonium (apparently does not, see below*) kill humans a lot like the polonium that was used to poison the Russian ex-patriate in London a couple of months ago. As I understand it his death was not one of being cooked to death per se , instead it was an agonizingly slow and painful total shutdown of his body due to his ingestion of a mass of polonium whose volume was similar to that which defines a grain of salt. Imagine such substances, with such long half-lives dusting a modern metropolis as a result of an accident, sabotage or a 'dirty bomb'. Then imagine that metropolis abandoned by humans for centuries to come. Options? In some respects we don't have any options since such events are not as much "If?" as they are "When?"

All plutonium isotopes are radioactive. The most important is plutonium-239 because it is fissionable, has a relatively long half-life (24,360 years), and can be readily produced in large quantities in breeder reactors by neutron irradiation of plentiful but nonfissile uranium-238. Critical mass (the amount that will spontaneously explode when brought together) must be considered when handling quantities in excess of 300 grams ( 2/3 lb). The critical mass of plutonium-239 is only about one-third that of uranium-235.

Plutonium and all elements of higher atomic number are radiological poisons because of their high rate of alpha emission and their specific absorption in bone marrow. The maximum amount of plutonium-239 that can be indefinitely maintained in an adult without significant injury is 0.008 microcuries (equal to 0.13 micrograms). Longer-lived isotopes plutonium-242 and plutonium-244 are valuable in chemical and metallurgical research. Plutonium-238 can be manufactured to harness its heat of radioactive decay to operate thermoelectric and thermionic devices that are small and lightweight but long-lived (the half-life of plutonium-238 is 86 years). britannica.com

*And then in "the myth of plutonium toxicity" there is interesting info contradicting some of that which I stated above.

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

To Joshua....of course solar panels don't work at night. That's why I'm for researching electricity storage devices, such that we can continue at night. There are several promising technologies under research.

The number one problem with GeoThermal is the unpredictabliltiy of the source. One day barely a trickle of steam, the next day it blows your collector/exchanger pipes sky high.

The GEM is a perfect example of a brand new electric vehicle for under $10k. I know because I almost bought one.

To Miulang....its not a question of "pro-ethanol" or "anti-ethanol". I prefer the best ideas. Ethanol is not even close to the best idea. Solar/wind generation with better storage technology would be better.

But what really worries me is how the Enviros, the Warmongers, and the Farmers all agree on a technology that is clearly not the best choice.

Reminds me of some kind of Orwellian episode of Twilight Zone.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Ethanol....

Maybe we should harness all the energy expelled from those thousands of tread climbers, bow flexes, and tread mills that seem to be selling across the nation.

Imagine 24-Hour Fitness machines hooked up to generators providing some net metering for HECO.

If one could count the amount of calories burned during an evening at these fitness centers and harness it we may be onto something. Lose weight and lower two things: 1) your cholesterol and 2) your electric bill.