Women in a man's world - What are your views?

[Mahi Waina]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Sociological point in red.
Primate excuse in indigo.
following that argument, WTF?? in green.

condescending snipe? It was my retort to a very condescending and nonsensical remark.

Shall I break it down?
Since when is sexism defined as, or should rest upon the defense of "enjoying each other"? Blaming "wiring" is a cop-out. Why then do women find it disrespectful? Self-defense is part of our "wiring", too. It is for the fact that acknowledging the disrespect means to acknowledge the wrongdoing. The statements that followed were excuses.

Retrosexuals are in, what else can I say?

[cynsaligia]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

from the "who does what" thread:

Aww Cyn, what makes it "interesting" to see that, today? I AM doing just what I want....I don't have a job outside the home....by CHOICE. Our joke is that he makes the money and I spend it. He makes plenty for us to be homeowners, and me not work.

So, come again, Cyn and explain to me the "interesting" part.

Oh yeah and speaking of being off topic here....the psychology of why you would even be focused on me here is...let's say, the really interesting thing....on this entire thread. I know why...do you? I don't intimidate easily and no one on earth is more confident than I, and obviously something about me, my views and my confidence in them....got your goat on that women's lib thread. Now...be good about explaining what you found so interesting cuz I already know...you're way off base....again? as usual? you tell me which it is.....waiting in much amusement.

Enjoy your weekend....I know I will, mine.

you far from “got (my) goat on the 'women in a man’s world' thread" (don’t be sloppy, karen. refer to it by its proper name). if anything, your statements in this thread have shown that feminists have gotten YOUR goat.

how so? i think that it's because some radical feminists have criticized the lifestyle you have chosen as being subservient to men and less than what is truly worthy of women. in return, you’ve marginalized all feminists (including me, hillary clinton, and any female managers, female cops, female firefighters, female soldiers) into one group of “other” which you disdain and see as less than you. that “psychology” (let’s use your word) is made more apparent by the fact that NOT ONCE in this thread do you come out and say you are a housewife. and you know what? there’s nothing wrong with being a housewife, whatever title you want to give it. absolutely nothing. it's an honorable profession--more so than any other--to be wife and mother. so, if you had come out (proudly) and said, "hey! I’m a housewife, and the things some of these radical feminists say are hurtful to me or demean me and the choices I and my family have made," you would have had a very valid point that any one of us could have empathized with and respected.

but what did you, mrs. i'm-so-proud-to-be-a-housewife-i neglected-to-say-i was-one choose? irrationally, you chose instead to be prejudiced discriminate against your own gender--calling women who believe in the values of feminism "feminazis" and dismissing women in positions of power or holding masculine roles altogether. you hold up as proof of your supposed strength as a woman your lack of need for a man, how you control finances for your family, and imply that you could easily divorce your husband if circumstances came to that but in the meanwhile, your husband, devotee he is, polishes your pedestal. you think that displays confidence or strength as a woman or as a person in general? let me speak figuratively/ironically here: what a limp dick you have! confidence is not only about being sure in the choices you make for yourself. confidence is also being able to admit weakness or hurt or that maybe we were mistaken in a point of view or that maybe we AREN’T confident about the choices we have made.

any chicken can make like a peacock and fluff feathers and put its chest out, but it’s still a chicken it’s clear that your insecurities are why you don’t accept the true and widely described values of feminism (versus your own jacked up pigeon-holing of what feminism is), and why you disapprove (in other words, are threatened by) women who take less traditional roles than you have chosen for yourself. if i'm not right about your being insecure and feeling threatened, then i challenge you to tell any woman friend or acquaintance of yours who might be a firefighter or CEO or military officer or scientist what you REALLY think of them,and report here what transpired.

your joke about how mr. karen makes the money and you spend it? it’s very old. how very quaint of you to think it’s funny, when really, any fully self-possessed woman, working out of the home or not, sees it for what it is--an insult that demonstrates how "kept" you are.

[CranBeree]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Amen!!

*claps*

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

double posted, sorry

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Cyn, "got your goat" or "stuck in your craw" the psychology is the same, and what I said about it is still just as true.

You can't gainsay my argument here on this thread and accurately summed up, it was and still is that generally speaking "most men are stronger than most women." Deal with the fact that you can't take on my argument and prove it wrong. that is because reality and even just one example that I have used has already proven my argument right.

Women are an extreme minority in fire departments because they are not strong enough to pass muster to be able to BE fire fighters. Women CANNOT do "anything" a man can do.

You have failed to prove my argument wrong. By the way, nothing erroneous about my calling this thread a women's lib thread. In the bible and for way too many years, most women were not liberated and that's what women in a man's world is all about, women NOT being "under a man's thumb, control or being almost owned" by men.

You are bothered because I failed to say IN this thread that I am a housewife? Good grief, I"ve posted here so much that I am shocked if I haven't said that in many posts here and maybe I have, but the fact that I referred to the few jobs that I have had, on this thread....wow, shoulda given you a hint. So what?! that I didn't clearly state that here. I won't hold myself to remembering what thread or even what forum I said clearly that I am, on so it's a non issue, except with you.

I am NOT hurt by radical feminists, some of which I quoted on this thread. I am disgusted by them, and even if I weren't, again, what I have said on this thread about them remains true....the radical women's lib gals have

HURT THE CAUSE. They are why many women won't admit to BEING feminists. Some of them, unlike women on this thread (which I also accurately stated on this thread) do indeed hate men. They seethe with this hate and their words ooze that hate.

You dang striaght that I am prejudiced, just as I discriminate.....in this way, I have very discriminating tastes. I will not vote for a woman for president and I remain damn proud that I have ideals and I stand by them. Exhaust all of the good men and then I'll consider a woman to run the country. I also give myself the privelege of changing my mind whenever I wish. Here's an example..

I liked what I read about Margaret Thatcher and I am old enough to remember her, back when she and Reagan were both leaders and good friends. If I ever get the vibes from a woman running for prez in our country, that she's as honorable and no-nonsense as Ms. Thatcher, then I will vote for her. so far, there's not one woman I would vote for, here.

I also stated, but you probably missed that I do not want a female boss but admit there's some good ones. I haven't met them but am sure they exist, get my point? I doubt the ods of me meeting one and her having a job that I am interested in are very likely, but I already posted here, accurately that some good female bosses exist, while I doubt I meet one and so I don't want one and doubt I ever agree to having one.

No, when you are wrong you are, as I suspected, TOTALLY wrong. I am not insecure, just the opposite and you can't make it so no matter how many times you may insist that I am. You also...wrong again, said something to me previously about "self -hate." what a bunch of projection and BS that was, too!

Now, get about proving me wrong, but you can't. You see, women fire fighters are VERY rare, what is it....New York City has less than 30 out of not quite 12,000?!! Yeah....the numbers don't lie, nor do the group pics of fire depts. all over our country. I suspect that very, very few women work the oil platforms in the gulf, and that there are countless other jobs that I simply can't think of right now that women are Very, very rare in......

because women are not as strong as men, "generally speaking."
Women cannot do any and everything that men can do, and I do mean besides impregnate another woman.

I do not have to have a self hate, or insecurity to say this, so knock it off, the trying to make me so, in your determination to take focus off of the truth.

You can't prove it untrue, for it is just reality and I am simply daring to state the facts of it.

Yeah, I can joke while you can't because of some proverbial "chip on your shoulder." You can't shake my confidence, my joking, can't make me embarassed for using old, Texas cliches from the sixties and seventies, and you can't make me feel like a kept woman. Of course, now you have posted some GLARING contradiction here, as you started out saying how honorable a "job" that being a mom and housewife (read homemaker these days, as if the label for it really matters, a rose by any name is still what it is) and now...you do a 180 and suggest that my joke insults myself and says I am a kept woman.

Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth, or only when talking to someone that's got your goat?

Keep posting here and try to worm out of this one. as I said before, that I was through with this thread, and weeks later, here I am on it again, doesn't matter to me what you say.

I've stated FACTS on this thread...facts you have failed to prove aren't facts,

because you can't.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

I believe it is simple, really. Karen, you are a kept woman. It influences your decisions and perspectives on women's roles; a necessity given that society does not validate the kept woman, no matter how we romantically pine to do so (SAHM/Kinkade Painter of Light/Precious Moments™, anybody?). But you are not a surrendered wife, in the definitive sense--keeping control over your husband through your homestead role is necessary to ensure the power balance. Because you need him financially, you need him to need you domestically--it is the only poker chip you got. Your position on this thread has reeked of insecurity, regardless of your protestations otherwise.

I freely admit that I do not envy your position. Too often I have seen men tire at being the sole breadwinner; it isn't romantic in the long run. It is hard to support a woman who cannot escape the glare in her mirror of a woman who wonders, when the moment is quiet and she can feel safe enough to entertain the painful thoughts of power imbalance and inequity.

But in those other moments, when you need to buckle into your daily armor, you goop it up and shop for twinsets on sale and surf the net looking for mombie tales and other womenly olympics and remind yourself that "he wants all this quiverful goodness!" and forget about Deborah in the Bible who was a leader of Israel, or Abigail who is the first woman that the Bible specifically praises for her intelligence or Sherah who built not one, not two, but three cities or she of Proverbs31 who was a wohm. In front of others, you rock on with your Titus2 self...but in the quiet of the night...you know I've a point.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Retrosexuals are in, what else can I say?

This cracked me up to read it. Good one, MW.

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Ahh, Pua'i, you utterly fail, also to negate or defeat my arguments here, so you project upon me what you "need" to label me as or think of me. Are you capable of focusing on my arguments, or only on what I have said of myself?

Now, if you post here again, TRY....to defeat my arguments here. I already know you can't. Women will never have literal equality with men because of the differences and women cannot do any and every thing that men can do, "generally speaking" of course, as we know there are exceptions.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Could it be that much of the disagreement hangs on our various definitions of "equal?"

Physically speaking, and in a general sense (as Karen noted, there will always be exceptions), male and female humans are quite different beasts - we all know that (and in many cases, count on it.) For the most part (again, exceptions noted), men have more physical strength than women, hence the point about more male firefighters, etc.

Mentally speaking, some research shows distinct differences in the way the male and female human brains function, but it's not always clear how those differences translate to operations (societal anecdotes aside.)

Socially, however - ay, there's the rub. There doesn't seem to be any reason to convince me that any of these doors that are open to one gender should not also be to the other. That's why I do not look at, for example, female politicians with any more or less suspicion than their male counterparts. Show me a candidate who has a plan to fulfill the responsibilities of the office, and is supportive of the same things I am, and they get my vote - no matter the gender, the generation, the ethnicity, the spiritual background.

I am in no position to judge the style of living that Karen, Pua`i Mana`o, Acousticlady, Anapuni808, Miulang, or any of the other participants here have chosen to lead, as long as they are (a) not causing harm to innocent parties, or (b) not demanding to impose their choices on others. I can disagree with how they like to live or the functions of their relationships, but I can't say they are right or wrong to live that way.

[/SNAG mode]

[acousticlady]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Ahh, Pua'i, you utterly fail, also to negate or defeat my arguments here, so you project upon me what you "need" to label me as or think of me. Are you capable of focusing on my arguments, or only on what I have said of myself?

Now, if you post here again, TRY....to defeat my arguments here. I already know you can't. Women will never have literal equality with men because of the differences and women cannot do any and every thing that men can do, "generally speaking" of course, as we know there are exceptions.

Me thinks thou doest protest too much. Ericncyn and PM have very valid points. You keep focusing on physical strength. Why? Physical strength comes in many forms. I, personnally know some very fit women and some very weak men - physically speaking. You can easily ask the question - "why aren't all men firefighters, soldiers or whatever" If this arguement came across in an academic paper, you would be blasted out of the water. You then keep saying you would never have a woman boss (ouch - personal stab?) or elect a woman president. What in the world does physical strength have to do with either?

Look, I know ericncyn, PM and I have gotten on your case. But it is not because we feel the need to personnally "put you down". We (I hope you guys don't mind me putting words into your mouths) only want you to think about how your words are coming across. They really do smack of insecurity on your part. And, hopefully, our responses will get you to think about your situation a little more deeply. This doesn't mean you have to run out and change your life, but rather, think about who you are and what you stand for. The whole firefighter, soldier arguement is not valid. All I hear is your husband/father putting those words into your head. And I think that is a big part of the problem.

[sinjin]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

What sort of jobs are men inherently unfit for? I'm just curious if this sort of stereotypical thinking cuts both ways. As a man who couldn't care less about sports I always find it shallow when I hear women stereotyping men. I think a call for men's liberation would meet with little support with women as a group because of men's "dominance" in society. But dominance isn't freedom. IMO we'll never have equality between genders. Women now can choose to work or not. Women can use their acquired skills to further themselves or, if so blessed, use their natural gifts. Does this sound equal?

[acousticlady]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

What sort of jobs are men inherently unfit for? I'm just curious if this sort of stereotypical thinking cuts both ways. As a man who couldn't care less about sports I always find it shallow when I hear women stereotyping men. I think a call for men's liberation would meet with little support with women as a group because of men's "dominance" in society. But dominance isn't freedom. IMO we'll never have equality between genders. Women now can choose to work or not. Women can use their acquired skills to further themselves or, if so blessed, use their natural gifts. Does this sound equal?

IMO I don't think there are any. Just as I don't think there are any that all women are inherently unfit for. It is a matter of personal choice. And men can choose to work or not too. I can give examples. We all come in all shapes and sizes, with all kinds of tastes and preferences and we all come from different walks in life. Part of the problem seems to be an inherent need to stereotype. Whether that be men stereotyping women, women stereotyping men, hawaiians stereotyping mainlanders, christians stereotyping arabs, jews or whatever.

[glossyp]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

What an interesting thread. Old school feminists who equate being a homemaker with being a "kept woman" in response to a woman who may or may not feel insecure (who can know this for sure?) about being a homemaker. After all these years, is this the best we can do? Perhaps real progress will come when people will do what LL suggests:

...as long as they are (a) not causing harm to innocent parties, or (b) not demanding to impose their choices on others. I can disagree with how they like to live or the functions of their relationships, but I can't say they are right or wrong to live that way.

[sinjin]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

...And men can choose to work or not too. I can give examples.

If indeed women only earn something like $0.71 for every dollar a man earns then a man choosing not to work is a man choosing poverty for his family. Unless of course his partner is a big earner and his psyche can handle being a kept man. Not many men can handle that and maintain a shred of self-respect.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Unless of course his partner is a big earner and his psyche can handle being a kept man. Not many men can handle that and maintain a shred of self-respect.

Well, let's see now...when I was working, I made a few thou less a year than the Alpha Female. Now that I am not working...okay, let's just assume that's temporary. But when I resume working, I anticipate making a LOT less than I used to, so she could potentially be bringing home kala in the range of 20K more than I will be. Now, I have an unusual range of creative/artistic skills, while she has a law degree and very definable and marketable ones. It's not surprising that she bring in more income than I.

I don't consider myself "kept," and the thought of it doesn't damage my self-respect. We still share expenses as equally as we did before the layoff, and that isn't likely to change; it just means I will have less "disposable income" than she.

But you did say "not many men," rather than "no man." The AF & I have had plenty of discussions about money and responsibility since I was laid-off, and I am confident that we are on secure footing, both financially and in the relationship. Unfortunately, we are (as sinjin suggests) likely in the minority as to that balance. Probably because I have no male ego shouting that I am supposed to be the big bread-winner in the household.