Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

[joshuatree]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Ah, but what you failed to quote from SB1259 is this:

SECTION 1. The legislature finds that that there are a large number of vehicles on Hawaii's roads, perhaps twenty per cent or even higher, that are not insured, despite the requirement that motor vehicles and trailers have appropriate vehicle liability insurance at all times. While proof of insurance is required when renewing a safety check on a motor vehicle, too often the registered owner buys insurance only for the purpose of obtaining the required insurance card and then cancels the insurance, but continues to drive the vehicle. Of course, there also is the problem of drivers forging insurance cards, something that is not difficult to do with today's computers.

As you can see, when you read and analyze the legislation as a whole, it does allude to computer printouts and how it can be used to forge no-fault cards. This is why all the insurance companies here now print their auto no-fault cards on paper with duplication-proof backgrounds.

So unless you have access to that same paper (and obviously you're not supposed to), it is impossible for you to produce a no-fault card on your home PC that complies with the state's law.

So the question is, do all insurance companies provide insurance cards on "duplication-proof" paper? I put that in quotes because I don't believe there is such a thing as duplication-proof. If someone wants to forge bad enough, it can be done. But back to the point, I really don't think insurance companies are going to spend significant resources to address this. Which is why I think this law is well intentioned but practically useless and a burden on the public. I brought up two drivers in my last example but let's say three or more and everyone wishes to carry their own copy in their wallets. Why doesn't the state simply have insurance companies report back to the DMV and there will be a centralized database a police officer can simply log into from the squad car computer to validate the insurance status? A lot of work? If you want something done right, it entails work.

[alohacandy]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Ah, but what you failed to quote from SB1259 is this:

SECTION 1. The legislature finds that that there are a large number of vehicles on Hawaii's roads, perhaps twenty per cent or even higher, that are not insured, despite the requirement that motor vehicles and trailers have appropriate vehicle liability insurance at all times. While proof of insurance is required when renewing a safety check on a motor vehicle, too often the registered owner buys insurance only for the purpose of obtaining the required insurance card and then cancels the insurance, but continues to drive the vehicle. Of course, there also is the problem of drivers forging insurance cards, something that is not difficult to do with today's computers.

As you can see, when you read and analyze the legislation as a whole, it does allude to computer printouts and how it can be used to forge no-fault cards. This is why all the insurance companies here now print their auto no-fault cards on paper with duplication-proof backgrounds.

So unless you have access to that same paper (and obviously you're not supposed to), it is impossible for you to produce a no-fault card on your home PC that complies with the state's law.

Yes, it ALLUDES to the fact that computer printouts can be forged however, where in BLACK AND WHITE is it clear that the computer printout cards can't be used? And why do we have to go searching through google and laws to even find anything? Why isn't it on the hawaii.gov website under vehicle licensing and drivers licensing where people usually go to to find this kind of info? It should be CLEAR and READILY AVAILABLE to the public, not something we have to dig around and search for. Is that too unreasonable of a request to ask for?

[Frankie's Market]

So the question is, do all insurance companies provide insurance cards on "duplication-proof" paper? I put that in quotes because I don't believe there is such a thing as duplication-proof.

Yes, Joshua. You are right. Strictly speaking, there is no paper yet invented that is 100% duplication proof. If someone with the necessary skills, material, and equipment is determined to forge a document printed on security paper, it can be done.

Now with all that said,.... it still doesn't change, not one iota, the fact that the major auto insurance companies here print their no-fault cards on security paper that is that is resistant to duplication. No, it's not 100% foolproof, but the idea is to make it so that it's not all that easy for folks to print out bogus no-fault documents.

But back to the point, I really don't think insurance companies are going to spend significant resources to address this.

Well then I got news for you, Josh. There is a HUGE industry of companies that provide security/watermarked paper for businesses that need them. There's plenty out there, if you open your eyes. Hospitals use them on prescription forms. Colleges use them on transcripts. Law firms use them on business contracts. Banks use them on checks and money orders. So do retailers and govt. agencies. And yes, especially insurance companies. They have to. Maybe you're not aware of it, but insurance fraud is a big, BIG problem. In fact, one could argue that along with banks, insurance companies are the ones that are most in need of security paper for their documents.

Which is why I think this law is well intentioned but practically useless and a burden on the public. I brought up two drivers in my last example but let's say three or more and everyone wishes to carry their own copy in their wallets. Why doesn't the state simply have insurance companies report back to the DMV and there will be a centralized database a police officer can simply log into from the squad car computer to validate the insurance status? A lot of work? If you want something done right, it entails work.

A good idea to have a database where HPD can "validate" the insurance status of a vehicle. But it will cost $$$$. Whether it's tacked on to driver license/motor vehicle registration fees or a mandatory surcharge on your insurance premium, motorists will end up paying for it.

And to copy your example Josh, note that I put the word validate in quotes. This is because there is always the chance that clever and determined hackers can alter information on the database. As you alluded to earlier, nothing is 100% foolproof.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Yes, it ALLUDES to the fact that computer printouts can be forged however, where in BLACK AND WHITE is it clear that the computer printout cards can't be used? And why do we have to go searching through google and laws to even find anything? Why isn't it on the hawaii.gov website under vehicle licensing and drivers licensing where people usually go to to find this kind of info? It should be CLEAR and READILY AVAILABLE to the public, not something we have to dig around and search for. Is that too unreasonable of a request to ask for?

I believe that it is stated that you need to carry in your vehicle an original no-fault card issued by the insurance company in the Hawaii Drivers Manual. You can purchase the manual at Long's Drugs or almost every book store.

The bottom line is: if anyone wants to drive in this or any other state, it is their responsibility to abide by the laws this state has set up. Whether it's having an original (not duplicate) copy of a no-fault card or remembering to renew the safety check sticker, even without a mail-in reminder. You can rant and complain to everyone in this forum, if it will make you better. But I wouldn't hold my breath hoping that the same tactic will work with an officer who pulls you over and cites you for these kinds of violations.

[joshuatree]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Well then I got news for you, Josh. There is a HUGE industry of companies that provide security/watermarked paper for businesses that need them. There's plenty out there, if you open your eyes. Hospitals use them on prescription forms. Colleges use them on transcripts. Law firms use them on business contracts. Banks use them on checks and money orders. So do retailers and govt. agencies. And yes, especially insurance companies. They have to. Maybe you're not aware of it, but insurance fraud is a big, BIG problem. In fact, one could argue that along with banks, insurance companies are the ones that are most in need of security paper for their documents.

Frankie, before you go telling others to open their eyes, please re-read what I posted earlier. I did not say anything about the lack of industry or companies that provide security featured forms, papers, IDs, etc. What I said is that insurance companies will not spend significant amounts of dollars investing in security enhanced insurance cards. I have proof. I am looking at my car insurance card and it is nothing more than a piece of paper with the company logo. No watermark, no holographic ID, nothing, nada. If I had a high quality, color copier, I can make copies of it and they would look the same. Which is why I said the law is well intentioned but practically useless. And yes, the insurance card is for Hawaii if you are wondering, Liberty Mutual if you want the name. If this method is so successful, why are the majority of states not following this method? Do you think car insurance fraud is only specific to Hawaii?

A good idea to have a database where HPD can "validate" the insurance status of a vehicle. But it will cost $$$$. Whether it's tacked on to driver license/motor vehicle registration fees or a mandatory surcharge on your insurance premium, motorists will end up paying for it.

And to copy your example Josh, note that I put the word validate in quotes. This is because there is always the chance that clever and determined hackers can alter information on the database. As you alluded to earlier, nothing is 100% foolproof.

Yes Frankie, a database is not 100% foolproof either but what has better security and a higher success rate of preventing forgery? A centralized database with proper firewall, encryption, passwords, and access to authorized personnel? Or a piece of paper with supposedly security features on it? Do HPD officers even attend class to learn all the types of car insurance cards out there and know how to spot each card's security feature?

Yes, it will cost $$$$ but penny wise, pound foolish. Spend money upfront to properly deal with car insurance fraud or let fraud run rampant and bleed each legitimate driver through higher premiums?

[Amati]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

I believe that it is stated that you need to carry in your vehicle an original no-fault card issued by the insurance company in the Hawaii Drivers Manual.

Hawaii Driver's Manual, 2006, page 54:
"Every owner of a car, bus or truck must have motor vehicle insurance in order to register or operate a vehicle in the State."
Nada about needing to carry a no-fault card.

But, my no-fault card states:
"This card must be carried in the insured motor vehicle for production upon demand."

Perhaps it is the insurance company's responsibility to inform the customer of the need to carry the card? Maybe the burden has been passed on to the insurance company, and so the State does not bother to tell people in its literature, etc?

[Amati]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur...0010C-0107.htm

§431:10C-107 Verification of insurance: motor vehicles. (a) Every insurer shall issue to its insureds a motor vehicle insurance identification card for each motor vehicle for which the basic motor vehicle insurance coverage is written. The identification card shall contain the following:
Name of make and factory or serial number of the motor vehicle; provided that insurers of five or more motor vehicles which are under common registered ownership and used in the regular course of business shall not be required to indicate the name of make and the factory or serial number of each motor vehicle;
Policy number;
Names of the insured and the insurer; and
(4) Effective dates of coverage including the expiration date.
(b) The identification card shall be in the insured motor vehicle at all times and shall be exhibited to a law enforcement officer upon demand.
(c) The identification card shall be resistant to forgery by whatever means appropriate. The commissioner shall approve the construction, form, and design of the identification card to ensure that the card is forgery resistant.

So, I guess technically a no-fault card that is simply printed on a home computer's printer won't pass the "resistant to forgery" requirement. I'd go back to the insurance company and complain if they are providing a no-fault card that won't pass the sniff test.

[alohacandy]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Hawaii Driver's Manual, 2006, page 54:
"Every owner of a car, bus or truck must have motor vehicle insurance in order to register or operate a vehicle in the State."
Nada about needing to carry a no-fault card.

But, my no-fault card states:
"This card must be carried in the insured motor vehicle for production upon demand."

Perhaps it is the insurance company's responsibility to inform the customer of the need to carry the card? Maybe the burden has been passed on to the insurance company, and so the State does not bother to tell people in its literature, etc?

Thanks Amati. Of all places, this is EXACTLY where there SHOULD be a clear statement about needing to carry a non-forgeable insurance card. Instead, we have to go to websites to dig up the law (like you show in your next posting)...except for know it alls who like to scold people because of course, they know it all and the rest of us are whiners or ignorant. Shame on us. Slap slap. :-)

[alohacandy]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

I believe that it is stated that you need to carry in your vehicle an original no-fault card issued by the insurance company in the Hawaii Drivers Manual. You can purchase the manual at Long's Drugs or almost every book store.

The bottom line is: if anyone wants to drive in this or any other state, it is their responsibility to abide by the laws this state has set up. Whether it's having an original (not duplicate) copy of a no-fault card or remembering to renew the safety check sticker, even without a mail-in reminder. You can rant and complain to everyone in this forum, if it will make you better. But I wouldn't hold my breath hoping that the same tactic will work with an officer who pulls you over and cites you for these kinds of violations.

As you can see by Amati's post, it is NOT stated in the Hawaii Drivers Manual which I DO have a copy of. And no, when I was hit from behind and showed the officer my insurance card from the internet, I didn't have a problem...nor when I showed the safety inspection station my internet card OR the City and County Satellite City Hall staff when I updated my registration.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Frankie, before you go telling others to open their eyes, please re-read what I posted earlier. I did not say anything about the lack of industry or companies that provide security featured forms, papers, IDs, etc. What I said is that insurance companies will not spend significant amounts of dollars investing in security enhanced insurance cards. I have proof. I am looking at my car insurance card and it is nothing more than a piece of paper with the company logo. No watermark, no holographic ID, nothing, nada. If I had a high quality, color copier, I can make copies of it and they would look the same.

Thanks for the info. In that case, I will be very careful about getting involved in any kind of traffic accident with a Liberty Mutual policy, as far as ID and getting contact information.

Yes Frankie, a database is not 100% foolproof either but what has better security and a higher success rate of preventing forgery? A centralized database with proper firewall, encryption, passwords, and access to authorized personnel? Or a piece of paper with supposedly security features on it?

I think you might want to pause, take a deep breath,.... and really think about what you've just said for a moment.

I (and maybe nobody else) can give you an accurate figure. But just to throw out a number here,..... if only say, .5% of the population has the resources, knowledge, material, and skill to successfully hack into a centralized database, then what percentage of the population would have the ability to create (from scratch) documents printed on 2008 technology security paper that can pass the scrutiny of a trained eye? .7%?

I conceded the point that there's no security paper that is 100% foolproof. But that doesn't mean that an average person can just go out and do it. (Can you? I know I can't.) There's no "Dummies" guide to this level of fraud and forgery.

And for the select few who are given the proper materials and equipment to pull off the forgery, it could take many weeks, if not years, of tedious and meticulous work to finally come out with an acceptable copy of a custom security printing. And by the time they come out with their "masterpiece," it could very well be rendered obsolete by a new design/background. (Not uncommon for insurance companies to do this every couple of years, with the express idea of combating the forgers.)

Do HPD officers even attend class to learn all the types of car insurance cards out there and know how to spot each card's security feature?

Most bank tellers haven't seen the logo of *every* single bank/S&L/credit union that exists in this country. But they are given the training and bulletin alerts to look for certain features and to spot checks/documents that looks suspicious and merit closer scrutiny. Is it so hard for you to believe that HPD officers are capable of likewise receiving a similar kind of training and instruction when it comes to recognizing suspicious and dubious looking no-fault cards?

Keep in mind that driving with a fake no-fault insurance card is a citable offense that can be challenged in a court of law. Officers are expected to provide courtroom testimony if a defendant cited for using a forged card wants to fight the charge. Knowing this, do you still find it inconceivable for police to receive training when it comes to the detection of fake no-fault cards?

Yes, it will cost $$$$ but penny wise, pound foolish. Spend money upfront to properly deal with car insurance fraud or let fraud run rampant and bleed each legitimate driver through higher premiums?

Now this is the irony of ironies! You purport that taxpayer investment of thousands of dollars into a centralized database is justified in order to deal with auto insurance fraud. But at the very same time, you're not able to see how "penny wise, pound foolish" you sound when you say that it's not worth it for insurance companies to invest in security paper for their documents in order to deter thousands (perhaps even millions) of dollars worth of fraudulent schemes.

In the greater scheme of things, security paper is one of the most cost-effective ways for any institution to fight forgery and fraud. Banks, insurance companies and the like don't have to create their own. As I said in a previous post, there are companies that specialize in providing customized security paper. Sure, their paper costs a little more than unsecured paper. But the investment in the extra cost is worth it, when you consider how much a company stands to lose if they make themselves an easy target for fraud. And I know that extra cost comes nowhere close to how much it would cost to invest in a centralized computer system with all of the necessary security features to deter hackers.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

As you can see by Amati's post, it is NOT stated in the Hawaii Drivers Manual which I DO have a copy of.

Then your point is taken. Such information should be included in the manual. Maybe if we all write letters to our state legislators, this can be corrected in future editions of the manual.

[Amati]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Then your point is taken. Such information should be included in the manual. Maybe if we all write letters to our state legislators, this can be corrected in future editions of the manual.

Yes, the info on the need to carry a security-type-no-fault insurance card in the auto SHOULD BE included in the manual.
And, the insurance companies should be called to task if they are not providing the type of no-fault card to customers that is required by Hawaii state law.
So, perhaps if the driver's manual pointed out the need for the security-type-no-fault-card, more driver's would know to rattle their insurance company's cage about inadequate "computer generated" cards, BEFORE the customer is inconvenienced while standing at a government counter trying to do some required paperwork.

[joshuatree]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Thanks for the info. In that case, I will be very careful about getting involved in any kind of traffic accident with a Liberty Mutual policy, as far as ID and getting contact information.

Family's been using Liberty Mutual for over 20 years without any problems, if you have an irrational fear of them, you're free to choose other companies.

I (and maybe nobody else) can give you an accurate figure......

I don't see where you are going with this paragraph. Your example puts a central database with a lower success rate of hacking vs forgery of security paper. So what are you exactly arguing about? You seem to miss the point of security on paper. There is no unified standard amongst the insurance carriers. This makes it easy to forge as no one knows what carrier uses what as their security authentication.

Most bank tellers haven't seen the logo of *every* single bank/S&L/credit union that exists in this country......

I find it hard to believe HPD officers will spend the time and resources to memorize what each insurance carrier has as its security verifciation on their policy cards. The bank teller analogy is a poor one because HPD performs many other duties aside from spotting forgery on policy cards. Bank tellers have a more focused job and can commit the time to recognizing logos. In addition, banks usually have a hold on checks to provide additional time to communicate with the opposing bank/institution for verification. This does not happen when HPD is checking someone's policy alongside the road.

And while an officer can provide courtroom testimony to a forged card case, how often does it happen in the real world?

Now this is the irony of ironies!....

HPD squad cars already have laptop consoles for them to access databases, providing access to one more database will not incur much more cost. The infrastructure is already there, just a need for a will to make it happen. If anything, your insistence that having multiple insurance carriers issue their own secured policy cards is a waste of money with no standard or coordination. Just because there are companies that make security paper doesn't mean they are willing to sell them cheap. And there is no reason why any investment in a centralized database needs to be strictly a taxpayer investment. Insurance companies can chip in and not have to deal with spending money on security paper. A common fraud tactic is to buy insurance, get the card, then cancel for a refund. But with the card, you can go around pretending you are insured, the card's legit with your beloved security paper. A centralized database is real time, it will tell if one is insured or not as of that query time. I fail to see how you think security paper is the way to go, especially and I have said this many times, there is no unified standard.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

Family's been using Liberty Mutual for over 20 years without any problems, if you have an irrational fear of them, you're free to choose other companies.

I was talking about getting involved with another driver who happened to have a Liberty Mutual policy. Obviously, I have no control over what insurance company other people choose.

*sigh!* You're responding to, but not understanding, what I am trying to say. Under these circumstances, it's hard to carry on a constructive dialogue with you. I don't like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Have yourself a nice day.

[oceanpacific]

Re: Proof of Auto Insurance Gripe

I got into a minor collision with a Liberty Mutual insured on July 4. Suffice to say that my carrier's investigation has determined that the other party was liable for the accident - I was struck on the side from behind. We have yet to hear from LM regarding payment (I have a $500 deductible) or contesting the claim.