Rail Transit

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

The thing you guys keep forgetting to mention is the study done by the city shows traffic congestion won’t improve over CURRENT conditions. It’s also the position of the city that if they DON’T build rail, traffic will be even WORSE then it is NOW. If you are going to argue a position, state all the facts, don’t just cherry-pick the ones that support you.

Yes, let's state all the facts:

The Mayor's own numbers, released last month predicted rail would take 800 cars an hour off Leeward roads.

BUT, there are over 8,000 cars an hour on the roads now and they predict 16,000 an hour in 2020.

Yes TuNnL, your statement "It’s also the position of the city that if they DON’T build rail, traffic will be even WORSE then it is NOW." is factually correct.

It's also correct to say that it will get worse then it is now - period.

Your statement also glosses over the fact that we are paying a huge amount for very minimal benefit. (5+ million to remove one car off the road).

Sorry TuNnL, but I think your statement is the one that is cherry picking.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and if i had a chance since i live in a place that only buses would work that my chance of riding the railtransit is far from possible only when it's built,i may ride it if the price isnt to expensive only i have rode the bart and it's quick and easy to get from place to place so i thought to share this with everyone.

well thank's for your time

[turtlegirl]

Re: Rail Transit

Aaargh! So much debate about the rail! I hope they just do it, and do it soon and smart!

For people like me who are afraid of car accidents. A lot of people drive like idiots, and if I could take the rail, I wouldn't have to be in my car risking my life.

For people like me who are afraid of DUI's. One beer puts me over the 'legal limit'. Regardless of being drunk or not, it would cost me a lot to have a beer with lunch then drive home, if I were to be pulled over for anything. If I could take the rail, I wouldn't have to be in my car risking my driver's license.

For people like me who feel like mass transit may actually reduce time spent in traffic.

For people like me who like to walk.

For people like me who hate to drive in circles looking for parking (and adding to city street congestion).

Got a little more to say, but my friends just barged in being very loud and distracting!

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

It's not a case of rail or private car. There are other alternatives.

I'd like to see a upscale bus service for the rush hour commute. I think what keeps most people out of the buss is the spartin accommodations and the slimy folks you end up sharing a seat with. Put in a tourist class bus and I think you'll have more riders. Maybe throw in some taxis at each end so it's door-to-door without time wasting transfers.

[Keoni Martin]

Re: Rail Transit

Note: I am a former student of Panos': I took his seminar on automobiles in Fall 2003. He was very much against Rail and the BRT then, too.

I'm generally against big projects. A rail system costing a few billion dollars is "big" by any definition considering our tiny island.

We've spent decades being dependent on cars to get places, and suddenly they expect a few of us to ride a train? I'm not saying that cars/buses are preferable to trains; personally I prefer them. But let's be realistic: most of us will stay on the increasingly-congested roads. So we need to work with what we've got, instead of railroading some Big Idea for a complicated solution.

As implied above, the congestion problem is a community problem. The farther people work away from their houses, the more their houses will seem less like homes and more like hotels. But because the tendency of this Island is to centralize, centralize, centralize, the deterioration of community life as well as the congestion of traffic continue unabated. Rail, if it's effective, will only help fix one of the symptoms. If the money spent on the rail were used for jobs on the Leeward side, not only will traffic be decreased (far more than the rail would've decreased it), communities will be stronger.

(Of course, Pearl Harbor is the Elephant in the Room for my proposed solution )

[Random]

Re: Rail Transit

It's not a case of rail or private car. There are other alternatives.

I'd like to see a upscale bus service for the rush hour commute. I think what keeps most people out of the buss is the spartin accommodations and the slimy folks you end up sharing a seat with. Put in a tourist class bus and I think you'll have more riders. Maybe throw in some taxis at each end so it's door-to-door without time wasting transfers.

That still doesn't get rid of the slimy passengers who have every right to use public transportation, even if it is one of those used Roberts Hawaii tour buses.

[Random]

Re: Rail Transit

The hope, over the long term, is that people will work near where they live and live near where they work. It's not something that will happen immediately, but over a 5-10-20 year period, that's the way individual choices would go.

And what if you can't find job near your current residence but in another district? You give tax incentive for companies and business to move, what about something for the workers to move closer to their workplace?

[TuNnL]

Re: Rail Transit

Talk to Panos. It may not be a "formal study" by your definition, but he's got enough expertise to not be ignored.

I listened to Panos speak for more than one hour in a televised panel discussion. Though I can safely say that he believes what he is saying, I am more methodical about what I believe. If I can’t find documentation to support a statement or a position, I can’t accept it. This is the way of science, law, and journalism (FYI).

[dick]

Re: Rail Transit

It's not a case of rail or private car. There are other alternatives.

I'd like to see a upscale bus service for the rush hour commute. I think what keeps most people out of the buss is the spartin accommodations and the slimy folks you end up sharing a seat with.

Those ideas actually hold water. When I lived in Japan and commuted daily via train, there were cars that were called "Green Cars" (nothing to do with environmental garbage). These were swanky cars on the train that required an extra fee, but guaranteed seats with no standees. On certain days when I was dour I would fork over the extra ¥2000, or so, to ride in these cars so I didn't have to deal with the crap I'd normally face in a cattle car.

Although I doubt seriously that the trains here would ever be as stuffed as those in Japan.

Also, my employer paid for my train pass. I would get cash to buy a 6-month rail pass that would cover my commute from my home to where I worked (it sucked for them, since I lived outside of Tokyo and it cost close to $250 per six months). It was great, because I could use that on my off days for travel to Tokyo, and surrounding areas (with a small fee for areas not covered by the pass). And yes, that was totally fine by the rail companies and my employer. That's how it works in Japan -- everybody's rail passes are paid for by their employers. And that's how it should work here, if they want this thing to actually be a viable alternative to cars.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Just because that's the way that most do it, doesn't mean we have to do it that way if that's what's bothering you.

Sure you can do it in a different way but for all practical purposes, do you really think a private company will want to deviate from this setup? The current method maximizes their profit potential and minimizes their risk. I'm not bothered, I'm just pointing out to pro-toll folks a tollway has as many pitfalls as rail which they often like to ignore.

II'd like to see a upscale bus service for the rush hour commute. I think what keeps most people out of the buss is the spartin accommodations and the slimy folks you end up sharing a seat with. Put in a tourist class bus and I think you'll have more riders. Maybe throw in some taxis at each end so it's door-to-door without time wasting transfers.

And will you be willing to use this service? Or will it be you hoping the other drivers will get out of their cars to use this service so you can continue in your car?

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

That still doesn't get rid of the slimy passengers who have every right to use public transportation, even if it is one of those used Roberts Hawaii tour buses.

Who said it would be "public" transportation? I'm envisioning private companies. It would also cost the users some amount. Cheap enough to reasonable, high enough to keep out the scuzz. The major attraction of this setup would be the ability to be productive during the commute. When you're behind the wheel, you're really limited as to what you can do. Make people comfortable and productive, and they'll be lining up. Treating them like cattle won't work.

And what if you can't find job near your current residence but in another district? You give tax incentive for companies and business to move, what about something for the workers to move closer to their workplace?

I don't see it eliminating all transport, just cutting it down from current levels. Keep in mind rail is only expected to cut cars by 5%, so we've got a low threshold to compare with.

Tax incentives for remote job sites (think work at home technologies but from a cubical closer to home.) If we can eliminate just one trip a week that's a 20% reduction right there.

I listened to Panos speak for more than one hour in a televised panel discussion. Though I can safely say that he believes what he is saying, I am more methodical about what I believe. If I can’t find documentation to support a statement or a position, I can’t accept it. This is the way of science, law, and journalism (FYI).

Fair enough. I didn't see that, so I can't say how he presented things. That may not be a format that allows for much more then giving results of studies or models. When I saw his talk, it came off as someone who had the numbers to show why his ideas were better.

Those ideas actually hold water. When I lived in Japan and commuted daily via train, ....

I enjoyed my visit to Japan. I'm sure part of their success is due to:

- The trains went in early enough that the city built or adapted around it.
- The trains had right of way. Never stalled waiting for traffic.
- Used by the middle class, not just those who couldn't afford cars.
- Very well run. Everything you've heard about them being on time is correct. It's to the minute.

Also, my employer paid for my train pass. I would get cash to buy a 6-month rail pass that would cover my commute from my home to where I worked

I think my company is doing the same for bus passes for some of the workers.

Sure you can do it in a different way but for all practical purposes, do you really think a private company will want to deviate from this setup?

So, go with cost plus.

And will you be willing to use this service? Or will it be you hoping the other drivers will get out of their cars to use this service so you can continue in your car?

Right now, my company expects me to use my car to visit customers. They pay my downtown parking. If nothing changes, I'll be in the last 10% to leave their cars.

If I did change job situation, I'd sure be wanting another way to get to work. I don't want to pay three figures for parking. But the biggest issue right now is traffic is a little too nasty for a moped and the bus routes are so bad for my situation I'm looking at about an hour to go 2 miles. Solve the problem of effectively getting me from my door to my work place and back and I'm interested.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Solve the problem of effectively getting me from my door to my work place and back and I'm interested.

So if you had a bus route that literally went to your doorstep or within a block, took you to rail, and then a bus that drops you at your work, you be interested?

[Kimo]

Re: Rail Transit

Fuzzy memory, but the plush-bus idea was actually tried many years ago - but obviously it died a quiet death along the way. Maybe someone w access to clip files can search the archives?

[Random]

Re: Rail Transit

Who said it would be "public" transportation? I'm envisioning private companies. It would also cost the users some amount. Cheap enough to reasonable, high enough to keep out the scuzz. The major attraction of this setup would be the ability to be productive during the commute. When you're behind the wheel, you're really limited as to what you can do. Make people comfortable and productive, and they'll be lining up. Treating them like cattle won't work.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You say that treating them like cattle won't work, yet by privatizing it, you're just separating the prize cows from us "common herd" (the regular bus riders). Now I know you want car owners to keep their cars home during the workdays, but your statement sounds elitist, IMNSHO.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i just spoke with my mainland elder sister and i asked her about Elevated Highway's and she said if they did put that up,it would be like L.A. and you wouldnt know which way to go and for toll highway's where my eldest sister live's,she said toll's actually dont work since they have bridge's and those work and only toll where my eldest sister live's that she said hardly anyone ever use's it and that's all the truth.

She said that Rail transit with steel on steel would work and that's the truth.

Well thank's for your time