Rail Transit

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

In reality I'm confused about the entire issue as I see both pros and cons.

Here's how I see it: We need to find an efficient way to move a lot of people without having to depend upon cars. Because not everyone can afford to drive a car yet needs to get around in order to be gainfully employed; We need to find modes of transportation that will be less dependent upon petroleum products; Only so much parking can be built to accommodate private cars.

Rail, or any other mass-transit system, might not make a huge difference in the amount of traffic we have. Especially when you look at the projected growth and the available real estate for additional highways and streets.

However what rail does is provide an option for those who would rather not drive or who can't drive.

[Bobinator]

Re: Rail Transit

Here's how I see it: We need to find an efficient way to move a lot of people without having to depend upon cars. Because not everyone can afford to drive a car yet needs to get around in order to be gainfully employed; We need to find modes of transportation that will be less dependent upon petroleum products; Only so much parking can be built to accommodate private cars.

Rail, or any other mass-transit system, might not make a huge difference in the amount of traffic we have. Especially when you look at the projected growth and the available real estate for additional highways and streets.

However what rail does is provide an option for those who would rather not drive or who can't drive.

Here's a more simple, cost effect measure- Get larger vessels to carry people to and from Kalaeloa and Pearl Harbor to and from town during the morning and evening rush hours. The City's "The Boat" is ridiculously unreliable because it's too small and can't handle wave action during choppy weather. I can tell you this, it won't cost $3.7 to $5+ billion to build and run ocean lanes. We're completely surrounded by water, but we're too stupid to do something with it.

I don't see anything wrong with providing larger sail boats as well to preserve the environment. Last time I checked, the wind is free and doesn't produce carbon emissions.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Rail Transit

The amount of commuters that it would take to make H2O viable don't want to bother with that concept.
Many drivers that are alone in their cars want it to stay that way. For many, that hour or so commuting to and from is the only private time they have in their daily lives and aren't willing to have it messed with.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

Boats are much less fuel efficient than vehicles on wheels, whether that's rubber or steel wheels.

You have to push a body through a fluid, and that takes energy. A displacement hull (like those of sailboats and canoes) are pretty efficient compared to some other hulls, but their speed is limited. A planing hull is a lot faster but it takes an even greater amount of energy to keep these hulls on the water's surface so that they don't create a lot of drag. There are other hull designs, such as SWATH, etc. But none are even close to the efficiency of a hard wheel on a smooth surface.

Among the most efficient are bicycles. Doesn't take much power to keep one moving at less than 15 mph. More than 15 mph and air resistance starts to become a factor in energy required.

Sailboats are very efficient but very slow. 5 knots average. Kalaeloa to Aloha Tower is about 14 nautical miles. So you're looking at a commute that would take about three hours each way when you take into account getting in and out of the harbor and docking.

And going eastward means having to "tack" against the wind. It's a zig-zag course that increases the distance and time dramatically.

I met one of the captains for theBoat and he said that the two boats burn a total of about 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel per day. And it's not carrying very many passengers. So fuel costs at $4,000 daily is quite prohibitive. Getting a larger boat won't help if the passenger count doesn't go up dramatically.

As for sticking with cars, that is always an option but only if you're able to drive. Some day I'll be too old to drive and would like the option of getting around without having to sit on a bus that trapped in gridlock.

And then there's those events where you don't want to take your car. When the Waipio Little League and Olympic champs had their parade in Waikiki, we went to see it by catching a cab. The bus stopped running because the streets were closed off.

Interestingly, when we went back via the bus, I realized at how LOUD they are. That loud hiss of air whenever they apply the brakes and the spooling up of the diesel engine is far noisier than any electric train I rode on in Japan.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i in my own heart believe's that rail will help with all of this traffic congestion and it would help people by not using their car's and it will save time on traffic since rail is much faster and not being tied up in traffic congestion.

well thank's for your time

[Bobinator]

Re: Rail Transit

[quote=Composite 2992;211557]
Among the most efficient are bicycles. Doesn't take much power to keep one moving at less than 15 mph. More than 15 mph and air resistance starts to become a factor in energy required.

[Don't know anyone who would ride 20 miles to work, especially in rain.]

Sailboats are very efficient but very slow. 5 knots average....

[Not if you combine a sail with a motor]


I met one of the captains for theBoat and he said that the two boats burn a total of about 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel per day. And it's not carrying very many passengers. So fuel costs at $4,000 daily is quite prohibitive. Getting a larger boat won't help if the passenger count doesn't go up dramatically.

[I don't think "The Boat" uses the most fuel efficient boats. If I'm not mistaken, it only carries like 30 people. Don't need a tug boat to transport people 14 miles. Those triple decker dinner ships might do just fine, and carry several hundred at a time. A superferry-like vessel may carry 500+. Sure, $5 one way per passenger won't carry the cost, but subsidize it with the .5% in GET, and it'll work. At the very least, it'll be a lot less than what rail would cost, and you could adjust the run time with ridership. With rail, you're stuck with the $5 billion bill, plus maintenance no matter what the ridership is. You can't decrease or adjust the rail cars with seasonal ridership like you can with vessels.]

quote]

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

Although a ferry is an interesting idea, there's the problem of how frequent the run might be and the hours of operation.

The planned rail system will run from 4 am to midnight. service is available every three to six minutes. The current experimental ferry boat runs only a few times in the morning and afternoon. And if you work a little late and don't catch the last run back, you're stuck.

All sea-based systems are restricted by weather and Hawaii is known for its consistent tradewinds. Once those winds go beyond a certain point the ferry stops. A rail system is all-weather and much more dependable. And that's what commuters need: a transportation system that they can count upon.

The number of cars per train to accommodate a variety of demand periods. But by increasing the train frequency, the City hopes to handle periods of heavier demand.

Regarding riding a bike in the rain, I found it amazing that there are quite a few Seattle commuters willing to ride in the rain on a routine basis. Of course they have routes and roads designed with bikes in mind. That's not going to happen in Honolulu for years to come. The State has a bike plan, but year after year the vast majority of it remains in the planning stage. It's been that way for decades.

[Bobinator]

Re: Rail Transit

If they miss the ferry, there's always "The Bus". With new ideas from Prevadorous, it can be a very viable alternative. We wouldn't just include a ferry system, but also improve existing traffic flow with bus and carpool lanes. I agree we should consider a special route for bicycles, motorcycles, mopeds, scooters and those small electric cars you see once in a while in the downtown area.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

If Mufi wins the election perhaps he should consider hiring Panos to oversee the traffic system. Then Panos can implement the ideas he had regarding timing of traffic lights, etc.

Even if we do get a rail system, there's no reason not to make use of other ideas to help improve traffic flow.

[turtlegirl]

Re: Rail Transit

Anyone ever been to Catalina Island off the coast of California? There's an island that's got it together. They have limited the amount of cars permitted on the island. They have a waiting list for those who feel that they need one or more cars. It works well for them. And there's lots of electric powered golf carts available for those who are either waiting to get a car, or have decided that their commuting needs do not require that they have a Ford or a Kia or a Geo, or a Chevy. It could be workable here...if people weren't so stubborn. Think about it! No more cars brought to the island for a certain amount of time. That would really get people considering other options and solutions.

Catalina Island link here.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and in response to composite2992,if mufi won,i would agree if he hired panos to oversee the traffic system and if it happen's we do get our rail,then it would be helpful to make use of other idea's to help improve traffic flow as it is now where i posted,since panos is against rail and he endoresed ann k,i wouldnt see this happening in the future and he brainwashed ann k by telling her that rail isnt the way to go.

well thank's for your time also what panos and ann k dont know is that in the mainland,i heard they used a H.O.T. lane and it caused a traffic nightmare and if used here,it would happen here also and that would be for Toll b's also.

[tutusue]

Re: Rail Transit

Anyone ever been to Catalina Island off the coast of California? There's an island that's got it together. They have limited the amount of cars permitted on the island. They have a waiting list for those who feel that they need one or more cars. It works well for them. And there's lots of electric powered golf carts available for those who are either waiting to get a car, or have decided that their commuting needs do not require that they have a Ford or a Kia or a Geo, or a Chevy. It could be workable here...if people weren't so stubborn. Think about it! No more cars brought to the island for a certain amount of time. That would really get people considering other options and solutions.

Catalina Island link here.

I've been to Catalina many times. Such a cute island but nothing about it can apply to Oahu, imnsho. I was surprised to read that Catalina now has 4000 residents. Compared to Oahu at approx. 1,000,000 residents, well, there just isn't any comparison...esp. in the infrastructure. Here are some island facts:
Length: 21 miles
Width: 8 miles wide at the widest point and - mile wide at the Isthmus
Size: 76 square miles
Miles of Coastline: 54

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i spoke with a cousin who also live's in l.a. and he shared with me that they also have rail and it's not noisy as people here expect it to be and the only one's he hear's are like sf's munibus which is like a train and they have one in l.a. simliar to sf's munibus and they also have a rail which is quieter than what people here expect and many ride it and it's not costly so i thought to share this with everyone.


well thank's for your time

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

A friend who is a cop in L.A. said when gas prices went up so did the ridership on their rail system. It went up significantly.

BTW, gas at Costco today was $3.25!

[Creative-1]

Re: Rail Transit

Are rail supporters ready to support a 60% increase in property taxes? It's coming.

The City expects $1 billion from the US DOT and $800 million from local developers. Those were highly unlikely before the economic downturn began. Now they're impossible.

The only way rail will be built is with a huge increase in property taxes (passed on to renters too) and another hike in the GET.

Are you willing to pay another $1500-2000 a year (avg.) for - as many of you call it - an "alternative" to cars - that will not reduce traffic congestion?