Rail Transit

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Are rail supporters ready to support a 60% increase in property taxes? It's coming.

The City expects $1 billion from the US DOT and $800 million from local developers. Those were highly unlikely before the economic downturn began. Now they're impossible.

The only way rail will be built is with a huge increase in property taxes (passed on to renters too) and another hike in the GET.

Are you willing to pay another $1500-2000 a year (avg.) for - as many of you call it - an "alternative" to cars - that will not reduce traffic congestion?

Can you please provide some link or proof there's going to be a 60% increase in property taxes? First I heard 40% though I have never seen anything resembling proof, now 60? Why do anti-rail folks need to incessantly use fear mongering?

Food for thought, has the actual property tax rate increased in the last few years or just the appraisal of property with higher figures that have resulted in higher taxes?

Again, is there something written in stone that property tax is the only way to fund for rail increase? The truth is, no one knows for certain. We can gripe about all the doom and gloom regarding the economy tanking etc, but don't forget to see the silver lining, cheaper labor rates and cheaper gas. We've already seen oil dropped below $80 a barrel. Only months ago, it was topping $150. If anything, the current downturn may actually make the 2006 AA estimate of $3.7 billion for 20 miles realistic. Look at all those car sales going on right now, it's a buyer's market, this includes construction too.

[Creative-1]

Re: Rail Transit

Can you please provide some link or proof there's going to be a 60% increase in property taxes?

This link discusses a 40% increase necessary to pay for rail. It was written in April when substantial funds from the US and local developers seemed reasonable.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...=us&lr=lang_en

Now that the US and local developer's pockets have contracted, it's obvious to me we'll have to make up the difference from Hawaii taxpayers.

This isn't fear-mongering. If you watch the numbers closely, it's clear the cost of building and maintaining rail and taxes set aside so far do not match.

Where do you think it's going to come from?

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

This link discusses a 40% increase necessary to pay for rail. It was written in April when substantial funds from the US and local developers seemed reasonable.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...=us&lr=lang_en

Now that the US and local developer's pockets have contracted, it's obvious to me we'll have to make up the difference from Hawaii taxpayers.

This isn't fear-mongering. If you watch the numbers closely, it's clear the cost of building and maintaining rail and taxes set aside so far do not match.

Where do you think it's going to come from?

I had a feeling it would be from the same groups, Grassroots, SRN, Honolulutraffic, Highway Alliance, etc. The funny thing is, that 40% is simply on a little table with no further explanation and that's sufficient evidence for you? Is there anything else not from the same anti-rail groups that speaks of a 40% or 60% property tax increase? I doubt it.

Let's clarify the issue first because I see some blurring here. Are you suggesting property tax increase to fund the construction of the rail or to fund O&M or both?

As I already suggested earlier, in relation to construction cost, we may have a silver lining here as sudden drop in oil prices, drop in demand in general, loss of jobs, can all relate to cheaper construction costs.

As for O&M, The Bus has been funded for years via funds obtained from property tax. Why the sudden brouhaha if not for fear mongering? What do you think will fund The Bus if we don't build rail and we need to expand the bus fleet whether we build a HOT or not? The AA actually shows the rail portion of O&M to be less expensive than additional buses and this makes logical sense as you need less manpower and resources to maintain a smaller fleet of train units that can carry the same amount of passengers than the fleet of buses would. I rather see a tier of fares to better increase farebox recovery ratios such as $1 for local bus routes, $2 for express bus routes and rail. No transfers. The better deal would be a monthly, unlimited pass slightly higher than the current $40. Compared to what we pay for a tank of gas, that is still a great deal.

[Creative-1]

Re: Rail Transit

Here's an excellent article on paying for Hawaii's transit plans. Unfortunately, it's not from the Carpenter's Union, so cannot be trusted as unbiased.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story....2-cdcc7fa14426

The increase in the GET generates about $150 million a year. Over 15 years, that's $2.25 billion.

The City expects $1 billion from the US DOT, they say. The DOT has never said it would give that much.

The City projects raising $800 million from local developers. Total: about $4 billion.

But if the DOT and local developers do not come through, that money would need to come from Hawaii taxpayers.

If they come up with say $500 million, which seems very reasonable in these circumstances, the City would need another $1.3 billion assuming no cost overruns (the average US rail system comes in 20-40% OVER budget).

The state could let the city increase the GET again, but with its own budget shortfall, this is unlikely, leaving property taxes as the only place the City could go.

Mufi cannot run for reelection saying he will raise your taxes substantially. The plan has been to get started, then, oops, we need more money. We can't stop and throw away the money already spent. We must raise property taxes to FINISH rail.

Tell me this ain't so.

[Seeking Penance]

Re: Rail Transit

all this hoopla about the transit is becoming absolutely frustrating

oahu - overpopulated with people - vehicles and homes let alone high-rises there isn't room to breathe

i am not for or agaisnt the rail system -i just enjoy sitting back and observe the scathing things these politicians throw at each concerning transit - let alone those who are against it or for it

this is a waste of tax payers dollars

regardless of the outcome - these are uncontrollable situations - in the end rather we are for or against the rail - it is just wasted

mahalo

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Can you please provide some link or proof there's going to be a 60% increase in property taxes? First I heard 40% though I have never seen anything resembling proof, now 60? Why do anti-rail folks need to incessantly use fear mongering?

Food for thought, has the actual property tax rate increased in the last few years or just the appraisal of property with higher figures that have resulted in higher taxes?

Again, is there something written in stone that property tax is the only way to fund for rail increase? The truth is, no one knows for certain. We can gripe about all the doom and gloom regarding the economy tanking etc, but don't forget to see the silver lining, cheaper labor rates and cheaper gas. We've already seen oil dropped below $80 a barrel. Only months ago, it was topping $150. If anything, the current downturn may actually make the 2006 AA estimate of $3.7 billion for 20 miles realistic. Look at all those car sales going on right now, it's a buyer's market, this includes construction too.

Fear mongering? Ads featuring 'traffic gridlock' look more like fear mongering than anything else I've seen concerning an Oahu rail project. Rail will not solve traffic congestion or traffic gridlock. Not even it's proponents believe it will. Traffic congestion and the rail project have only a peripheral bearing on one another, so why pretend a direct relationship between the two? On the other hand, fear of escalating costs appears reasonable and prudent, especially when viewed with respect to other recent government construction projects.

"Cheaper labor rates"? You mean the carpenters, masons, etc. are going to accept lower wages because there is less work going on alongside the rail project? Give us all a break, we know that is not true. Government projects usually enjoy very high, mandated hourly rates. The 2006 estimate will remain well below actual cost (by a likely multiple between 2 and 5) because the estimate simply wasn't based on reasonable assumptions. As for "all those car sales", I wouldn't expect to see cement, construction steel and rail equipment going 'on sale' before, during or after a large rail project has commenced. Automobiles go on sale because consumers have a plethora of choices, including the choice to 'not buy' - how many supplier choices will a rail project realize and will there be the choice to 'not build' after planning and construction has begun (due to unanticipated increases in evolving cost estimates)?

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Oops, double post.

[Creative-1]

Re: Rail Transit

Here's an article from Thursday's Kansas City Star underscoring the point I made earlier: Honolulu should expect LESS federal transit money and be prepared to pick up the difference, if we vote for rail:

U.S. Rep. Jim Oberstar and future transit funding
Kansas City Star, 10/09/08

http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/14910

"Generating the revenues to develop the surface transportation network necessary to support the nation's mobility and accessibility needs will be a major challenge for us to face in the authorization process next year.

"The crisis in the financial markets and the demand for government help to resolve it will have an enormous effect on Congress' ability to appropriate funds for a wide number of programs next year and beyond.

"These challenges will likely have an impact on the amount of money the federal government will be able to invest in highways, bridges, and transit in the coming years."

Rep. Jim Oberstar chairs the House transportation committee

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Fear mongering? Ads featuring 'traffic gridlock' look more like fear mongering than anything else I've seen concerning an Oahu rail project. ......"Cheaper labor rates"? .....

In case you haven't noticed, traffic gridlock exists every day during rush hours. I have yet to see any source aside from the usual anti-rail groups stating 40% or now 60% property tax increases. All I'm asking for is another source aside from the usual suspects to confirm 40% or more property tax increase. If it's not fear mongering, there should be many other sources.

Yes cheaper labor rates, you seem to think the world of construction defies market conditions. When you see a sudden slowdown in projects, or even a darth of projects, it becomes a buyer's market. I guess you forgot the last time Oahu went through an economic slump in the 90s when many construction workers moved to Vegas to find work there when the strip was going through a building boom.

Here's an article from Thursday's Kansas City Star underscoring the point I made earlier: Honolulu should expect LESS federal transit money and be prepared to pick up the difference, if we vote for rail:

Yet in the same link, the other half of the article is such below.

“Transit will play a large part in America’s response to the dual challenges of high energy prices and global climate change. In fact, that is already happening.

" Transit ridership is up in cities all across the country, and demand for transit services has been the highest we have seen in a half-century.

" The energy bill passed by the House earlier this year noted this by making aid to transit systems for fare abatement and new equipment a major component of our energy strategy.

"Congress also acknowledged this fact...when we required the Federal Transit Administration to stop judging new starts primarily on cost-effectiveness and give comparable weight to other factors such as economic development, and environmental benefits.

"Transit currently receives about 20 percent of federal surface transportation funding. Next year’s surface transportation authorization will give us the opportunity to draft transformative legislation and completely restructure our transit program to reflect the new realities of America’s transportation needs.


The fourth quote I find very important because a new dimension is being emphasized. Economic development. Many people say we can't afford it, we're gonna hit the skids with the economy. But these same people haven't proposed anything to save the economy from the nosedive. More tourism ads? Seriously, when people can't afford mortgages, what makes you think they will think of the Hawaiian vacation? Is the expectation for everyone to just sit still and hold tight and wait it out? The rail project isn't just a transit solution anymore, it's also an economic engine that we can use to weather the downturn. I wouldn't find it a stretch that the fed funds can be obtained from the $700 billion bailout package since it would help keep the local economy running.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i just learned that former gov ben cayetano is speaking up for stop rail now that he say's mayor mufi h want's to get the rail on track so he can run for higher office and i heard a spokesperson for mufi h say's that's not true so im voting yes for rail.

Well thank's for your time

[D'Alani]

Re: Rail Transit

[quote=joshuatree;212893]

Yes cheaper labor rates, you seem to think the world of construction defies market conditions. When you see a sudden slowdown in projects, or even a darth of projects, it becomes a buyer's market. I guess you forgot the last time Oahu went through an economic slump in the 90s when many construction workers moved to Vegas to find work there when the strip was going through a building boom.

I think there will be lower bids for the jobs but not cheaper labor rates because I doubt very much that a union will tell the rank and file to accept a wage cut...but then again you never know what lies ahead.

[tutusue]

Re: Rail Transit

[...]
I think there will be lower bids for the jobs but not cheaper labor rates because I doubt very much that a union will tell the rank and file to accept a wage cut...but then again you never know what lies ahead.

Unions can and do entertain negotiations depending upon the law of supply and demand. Working at a lower rate can be preferable to not working at all.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i just heard on a local news that ann k with the help of panos will share their verison of the rail and it look's like a magnetic elevation and it somewhat look's like a type of monorail type and i disagree with this verison,mayor h's one is the one who's is correct.steel on steel.

well thank's for your time

[AlohaKine]

Re: Rail Transit

Unlike the agenda driven radio ads, this thread is NOT payed for by tax payer dollars.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and i misheard that ann k's plan would be to put up elevated highway's and toll b's and rubber on concrete and that wont solve our trafficgridlock problem's,it would increase the problem and mayor h's plan with steel on steel would work.

well thank's for your time