Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

So do both Hilo and Kona airports turn off their runway lights after a certain time?

I'm not sure about the validity of this. But as far as I understand the
the aircraft can control the runaway lighting after the Kona Tower
closes at 8PM. It is radio controlled through the tower frequency.
As United, American, US Air (Delta seasonally) have flights AFTER
8PM at night. If memory serves me correctly US Air has a 10:59PM
flight to Phoenix AZ from Kona.

After 8PM, I believe all air traffic leaving, approaching Ke-ahole communicates
with Honolulu Center (The main FAA air traffic control in Honolulu). Also believe
it or not, Ke-Ahole is one of the second tier airports in the United States not
using FAA air traffic controllers. It is outsourced, as far as I understand. On
the other hand Hilo has FAA controllers as it is used as approach control for
incoming flights to Hawaii.

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Perhaps Aloha and Hawaiian are using fuel inefficient planes... definitely Aloha is as their Boeing 737-200's are at least 20 years old each.... they are thinking of switching to smaller jets. Someone also mentioned prop planes, and yes, they are more fuel efficient, but many people don't like to ride em. I've flown on them several times, I don't have a problem with em unless it gets too turbulent (jets fly higher and away from bumpy air) in bad weather.

As far as I recall Hawaiian uses Boeing 717,
which are more fuel efficient than the 737-200 aircraft AQ uses. Heck
the 737-700 aircraft AQ uses to the mainland are more fuel efficient.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

As far as I recall Hawaiian uses Boeing 717,
which are more fuel efficient than the 737-200 aircraft AQ uses. Heck
the 737-700 aircraft AQ uses to the mainland are more fuel efficient.

The newer planes are all more fuel efficient than the older ones. It is quite astonishing that Aloha has kept the 737-200 in service for so long. For a while in the late 1980s and early 90s, Aloha was slowly converting their fleet to the 737-400. But I guess the larger planes never made passenger projections, and they went back to the 200 series. Since the 200 has been out of production for years now, Aloha's options are probably diminishing in finding 737-200s without too many take off and landing cycles.

We have to remember that the high take off and landing cycles of all interisland planes contributed in part to the Aloha Airlines flight 243 "disaster" that occured between Hilo and Maui in 1988.

That said, it seems that Aloha Airlines is in the market to look for a replacement for the venerable old 737-200.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

As far as I recall Hawaiian uses Boeing 717,
which are more fuel efficient than the 737-200 aircraft AQ uses. Heck
the 737-700 aircraft AQ uses to the mainland are more fuel efficient.

Yep, the 717 is more fuel efficient than the 737-200, much newer design. Aloha's looking at the Embraer 190 I believe. Check out these pics below.

http://www.pbase.com/aqohana/embraer190

AQ should replace their 3 737-200C cargo freighters with the 737-400F freighter conversions. Read in an article the 400F can carry 50% more cargo and use 20% less fuel than a 200C. Right there, that's money that can be saved. Two 400Fs can do the work of the three 200Cs.

Regarding Mel's post about smoother rides on a jet via turboprop. Yes, but given the rather short routes of interisland, how much time does a jet spend flying at the higher cruising altitudes? As soon as a jet hits cruising altitude, it's time to start coming down for the landing approach. I think both HA and AQ should switch to turboprops for their interisle flights to trim op costs and focus on expanding transpacific flights to strengthen their bottomline.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Would it be possible that if HA or AQ were priced out of the interisland market, that one or both would abandon the market and concentrate only on trans Pacific routes?

On turboprop planes what do you think are the best ones for the market? I was quite intrigued by Island Air's Q400 plane. It is too bad I'll never be able to try it out as that one is being returned.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Would it be possible that if HA or AQ were priced out of the interisland market, that one or both would abandon the market and concentrate only on trans Pacific routes?

If that happens, I think HA would have an easier time making that transition than AQ because they do have more flights to and from the West Coast than AQ does, and I just get the feeling that the transpac flights are more profitable for them than the interisland ones are. I'm pretty sure that before go! entered the Hawai'i airspace, those exorbitant prices for interisland tickets were also helping subsidize the sometimes fairly ridiculously low transpac airfares we see sometimes (now there's an HA internet special: SEA-->OGG for $328 RT, direct flight, no stopping off at HNL.) But from everything I've read so far, AQ is the one that's more shaky financially. AQ could run more Mainland-->Neighbor Island direct flights than it does now, but it doesn't have the newer more fuel efficient equipment like HA does. Or they could just do the transpac stuff and code share for the interisland flights with go! or Island Air, or just run charters and compete against ATA.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Would it be possible that if HA or AQ were priced out of the interisland market, that one or both would abandon the market and concentrate only on trans Pacific routes?

It's possible but I agree with Miuling that HA would stand a better chance of surviving as only a trans Pacific route airline. They've done it longer and have established a better footholding.

On turboprop planes what do you think are the best ones for the market? I was quite intrigued by Island Air's Q400 plane. It is too bad I'll never be able to try it out as that one is being returned.

I would say the Q400 is the best one for the market. It's currently probably the best commercial turboprop out there right now because it's the fastest and quietest one. It's cruising speed is a little over 400mph so it's not too bad compared with a jet's average of over 500mph. On the short interisland flights, you are probably looking at maybe an extra 5-10 min in the air? I think passengers won't notice that too much. And yep, it's too bad that we wouldn't have the chance to see how the Q400 performs with Island Air.

I know this has been looked at before, but I think given that both HA and AQ just came out of bankruptcy recently, they really should just merge. Combine the two interisland operations, replace the planes with props, and reduce the combined total number of planes to reflect the size of the interisland market. I see little overlap on the trans Pacific routes right now so I think they will do fine there. Then proceed to expand flights elsewhere to grow the company and market. Obviously pending flight slot allocations between countries, I see a flight to Melbourne would be a nice market to tap into. A flight to Shanghai to tap the growing Chinese market would be smart too. But that's just my $.02.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I agree with the assessment that Hawaii Air is better prepared to go exclusively transPac and dump the interisland market. They have bigger planes and fly to several major destinations. Aloha is competing but flying to secondary markets serviced by competitors such as ATA.

Earlier this decade I thought a merger between HA and AQ was a bad thing because it would have created a monopoly. Now with the market changed, it may be something to consider, though on principle I would at best still be uneasy about it.

[damontucker]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I'm not sure about the validity of this. But as far as I understand the
the aircraft can control the runaway lighting after the Kona Tower
closes at 8PM. It is radio controlled through the tower frequency.
As United, American, US Air (Delta seasonally) have flights AFTER
8PM at night. If memory serves me correctly US Air has a 10:59PM
flight to Phoenix AZ from Kona.

After 8PM, I believe all air traffic leaving, approaching Ke-ahole communicates
with Honolulu Center (The main FAA air traffic control in Honolulu). Also believe
it or not, Ke-Ahole is one of the second tier airports in the United States not
using FAA air traffic controllers. It is outsourced, as far as I understand. On
the other hand Hilo has FAA controllers as it is used as approach control for
incoming flights to Hawaii.

This is scary considering I read an article somewhere recently that reported something to the effect of Kona's airport having more Private jet landings then anywhere in the world due to the "World Class" hotels that are on that side of the island. (if anyone can recall and lin that article it would be appreciated.... I can't find it off hand)

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

My guess is that more private planes land at OGG than Kona because there are simply more rich people (move stars in particular) who seem to like hiding out at Wailea than just about anywhere else in the islands. I know when Planet Hollywood still existed in Lahaina, Sly Stallone and Arnie used to jet in to OGG (saw their jets parked) and I'm sure when Beyonce or Kate Hudson (and her new BF Owen Wilson) fly to Maui, they probably use a private jet to get to Maui. And you KNOW Oprah flies on a private jet...she's having a "girls' only pajama party" at her place in Kula sometime this month. OGG is also the 2nd largest airport in the State, next to HNL.

Miulang

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

OGG second largest in Hawaii? I wonder about that. They are definitely the 2nd most busy airport in Hawaii, but I would dispute about largest. I think Hilo and Kona probably have more acres, and both have longer runways than OGG. Kona is at 11,000 ft. and Hilo's main runway is about 9,600 ft. OGG's longest is about 6,500 to 7,000 ft at most, which cannot handle a fully loaded jumbo jet (747, 777, DC10).... However airlines have gotten smarter and got around that limitation by flying in smaller planes (767, 757, 737-700/800) into OGG and probably more often to make up the load factor missing with the bigger planes.

I don't know much about the private plane use, but I think Maui probably is more popular though there are a lot of rich people who not only stay in the North Kona resorts but also maintain nice big homes further north in Kohala.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

OGG second largest in Hawaii? I wonder about that. They are definitely the 2nd most busy airport in Hawaii, but I would dispute about largest. I think Hilo and Kona probably have more acres, and both have longer runways than OGG. Kona is at 11,000 ft. and Hilo's main runway is about 9,600 ft. OGG's longest is about 6,500 to 7,000 ft at most, which cannot handle a fully loaded jumbo jet (747, 777, DC10).... However airlines have gotten smarter and got around that limitation by flying in smaller planes (767, 757, 737-700/800) into OGG and probably more often to make up the load factor missing with the bigger planes.

I don't know much about the private plane use, but I think Maui probably is more popular though there are a lot of rich people who not only stay in the North Kona resorts but also maintain nice big homes further north in Kohala.

Mel's correct about the runway lengths (Maui has been battling for years and years to have a 3rd, longer runway built, but to no avail) and no, a 747 couldn't land at OGG, but who flies those larger planes anyway? Most of the US carriers have gone to the smaller planes. A JAL 747 definitely wouldn't be able to land at Kahului. OGG is 129th busiest airport in the US, though.

Miulang

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

The trend in airlines has definitely been smaller mid size, long range jets. These have become popular mainly because of the cost savings dealing with I think, load factors and fuel. It seems that flying long range on two engines is cheaper than flying on 3 or 4. However for safety, I personally feel safer with 4 engines on my plane vs. 2 on long range, over ocean (ETOPS) flights.

Because of Maui's reluctance to have longer runways, they perhaps missed out on direct flights to and from Japan on JAL who at one time flew 747s to Kona (I don't know if they still do or have switched to a smaller plane), When Hawaiian and other airlines used to fly DC-10's to Maui, they had to fly them out without full loads and I think had to have them refueled in HNL before continuing to the mainland.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Earlier this decade I thought a merger between HA and AQ was a bad thing because it would have created a monopoly. Now with the market changed, it may be something to consider, though on principle I would at best still be uneasy about it.

I don't see anything to worry about this time around. Island Air is independent of AQ and go! looks like they are sticking around. Don't think there's any worry when it comes to trans Pacific routes, got plenty of players on those routes. Plus, don't forget Superferry. So I see no threats of monopoly. But I do see a chance to make a stronger "local" company. You may end up shedding some employees but if the remaining employees can work for a solid profitable company, their paychecks are secured and morale will be good.

[mel]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Going back to that merger thing, I think Hawaiian would probably be put in a weaker position if they acquired Aloha. I think if Aloha wants to do something drastic, they should probably look for an outside investor or merge with another airline on the mainland. To me the best fit for Aloha may be Southwest as both operate 737s and to my knowledge are not directly competing on most routes. An Aloha-Southwest merger may be a good thing, especially if Aloha could somehow keep their identity.

Of course this is all speculative. Anyone know what the relationship of Southwest and other airlines on the mainland are with Mesa? Is Southwest profitable? Do they have enough $$$ to acquire a smaller airline like Aloha?