Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

You may not like what you get. Because "the market" is mostly interested in cheap travel. Yet the pilot is the key to survival when things don't go well. While I have no knowledge of what it's like at Aloha and Hawaiian, from what I see, the pay for pilots in the US in general is not going very well. Beginning pilots live on welfare. They can make more money working for UPS or FedEX. That's not going to attract the caliber of people you really want in the drivers seat of something that holds that many people.

Don't get me wrong. I have little love of unions. But from what I've been seeing, we're headed for a problem with a lack of good pilots. The cutbacks in airlines have forced some left seaters to move to the right on top of the across the board pay cuts have left some in bad shape.

Gecko you are right... Here read this story or watch the video made by some MESA (Same as go!) pilots. Its about 4 minutes long and exposes why PILOTS NEED A UNION JUST TO STAY ALIVE...

Safety FIRST! Pay is secondary!

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....13e79330.html WATCH THE VIDEO ITS GREAT!!!

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

You are wrong again. Those hourly rates are only when the aircraft is moving under its own power. Add up the hours and days spent away from home and its often a 60 hour work week for 20 hours of pay.

The pilots unions were formed to increase safety first. If it wasn't for the pilots unions, many mandatory safety features would never have been implemented into modern aircraft. All modern anti-collision terrain avoidance fire and navigation systems have been demanded for by the unions.

When you feel safe flying in a US registered "N" numbered aircraft, thank the pilots unions.

He got two phone calls, they probably came from mesa

How is he wrong? The site you pointed to us shows (looking at the Hawaiian one), that there is a monthly guarantee of 75 hours. If that's not what it means, please explain. As for hours and days away from home, uh....flying a 717 means interisland, isn't it safe to say all 717 pilots get to go home everyday? And even if you were away from home for a flight, don't you get comped with room, and per diem? Not every pilot is married and has family. You make it sound like being away is nothing but misery. Heck, isn't that part of the lure of being a pilot, getting to travel around?

Doesn't the FAA and EASA have a part in airline safety too?

There goes that mentality again, that every anti-Hawaiian/Aloha remark or comment must be those evil Mesa folks.

[damontucker]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

after looking at the dontflygo.com website today...

on the right hand corner there is a link that says:

Honoluluadvertiser on Mesa payroll?

I clicked the link and read the article... and there was nothing to justify the headline....

Anyone know anything about that?

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I think we can all agree is that pilots earn more than let's say a school teacher?

[arturo_h]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha-anon, you're close-mindedness is getting very annoying. We understand that you probably work for Aloha, but the things you're posting aren't going convince any of us open-minded, "smart" consumers that Aloha and Hawaiian completely in the right and that Mesa is completely in the wrong, I mean it's clear as day.

To post a link about pilots not getting enough sleep is a cheap shot at Mesa since there's no evidence that they're talking about go! pilots, and we all know that every pilot for every airline has had the same problems. Would you have posted these things about Mesa if they never came to the islands? I don’t think so.

Mesa’s management may not treat their employees well, but that doesn’t mean that these pilots are not proud of what they do and give 110% when they fly to keep their passengers safe. These pilots are just normal working people who love to fly and love what they do and should not be blamed for bad management.

If you want to argue about Mesa’s bad management and about Ornstein then go for it, but I don’t believe for one second that’s enough to keep the Hawai’i people from taking advantage of low fares to travel around the islands.

-Arturo

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I think we can all agree is that pilots earn more than let's say a school teacher?

To be fair, some regional pilots working on the mainland do get shafted on the pay, something like as little as $18,000 a year. And in those instances, I fully support something needs to be done to fix that injustice. But the pilots of Aloha and Hawaiian who are captains or a FO with quite a few years don't get much sympathy because they bring in a nice amount as is.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

To be fair, some regional pilots working on the mainland do get shafted on the pay, something like as little as $18,000 a year. And in those instances, I fully support something needs to be done to fix that injustice. But the pilots of Aloha and Hawaiian who are captains or a FO with quite a few years don't get much sympathy because they bring in a nice amount as is.

Man at $18,000 per year they're better off collecting welfare or at least working at WalMart. There must be some incentive for pay that low for pilots.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I'm with Gecko on this one. Would I want to put my life and the lives of my fellow passengers in the hands of a disgruntled pilot? I don't think so.

Besides the fact that pilots have to go through all kinds of training (if they are not military veterans), they also have extremely rigid health standards, and they are forced to retire at age 60, no matter how physically fit they are.

It's kinda like a pro athlete (although I am appalled at how much some of them get paid more than I am at how much a pilot gets paid), whose professional career might only span 10-15 years. Even though the annual wages look exorbitant, if you break it down further into maybe 40 years (the average amount of time any person will probably work), the annual amount comes to much less, amortized over 40 years.

And yes, the regional pilots do get shafted pay-wise. They fly smaller planes and surprise, surprise, many of them are women!

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Man at $18,000 per year they're better off collecting welfare or at least working at WalMart. There must be some incentive for pay that low for pilots.

The incentive is a foot in the door into the world of flying and potentially pay increases and career ops. But companies like Mesa aren't providing any of the latter so their pilots are getting disgruntled. It is on this end of the spectrum that I do support the pilots in getting better working conditions. When it's on the other end, the ones who are making bank, saying they need more, those are the ones I really don't have sympathy for. Yes, pilots have to invest in training but so do engineers. Why aren't they guaranteed premo wages and pensions? Are they not doing something important when they are designing that plane you are flying on?

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I'm with Gecko on this one. Would I want to put my life and the lives of my fellow passengers in the hands of a disgruntled pilot? I don't think so.

The new planes today fly themselves. That includes take off and landing by themselves. There are probably ex-military aviators and skilled pilots out there that would jump at the chance to work part-time and get paid lets say 80-100K.

Firefighters work similiar shifts, put their life on the line yet make much less. Would you trust a firefighter saving you from a burning building just because the guy only made 60-70K?

Besides the fact that pilots have to go through all kinds of training (if they are not military veterans), they also have extremely rigid health standards,

all kinds of professions have rigid training requirments/health standards. Police, engineers, life guards, nurses, doctors, you name it. The real test is comparing the comp of a union vs non union employee. all types of workers that are union and non-union have reasonably comparable pay rates.

Except pilots. If the non-union pilot makes $18,000 and the union tenured pilot makes $150K+ part time, you know their pay scale is out of whack.

and they are forced to retire at age 60, no matter how physically fit they are.

riiiight, that's to make way for a new batch of pilots and have the older ones retire on a TOTALLY cushy penion. How can retired life get better than that?

It's kinda like a pro athlete (although I am appalled at how much some of them get paid more than I am at how much a pilot gets paid), whose professional career might only span 10-15 years.

I don't cry over professional athletes because their comp does not make their business model unsustainable. If there were a competitive league that started and the NFL started crying about competition being unfair and driving down their profits, then I'd say "get a grip" and feel the same way. Also the advertisers pay their salaries on a national level via the network tv stations and stadium revenues. They deserve their pay. The generate the income for the business and industry and it is market driven.

Pilot pay is not market driven.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha-anon, you're close-mindedness is getting very annoying. We understand that you probably work for Aloha, but the things you're posting aren't going convince any of us open-minded, "smart" consumers that Aloha and Hawaiian completely in the right and that Mesa is completely in the wrong, I mean it's clear as day.

To post a link about pilots not getting enough sleep is a cheap shot at Mesa since there's no evidence that they're talking about go! pilots, and we all know that every pilot for every airline has had the same problems. Would you have posted these things about Mesa if they never came to the islands? I don’t think so.

Mesa’s management may not treat their employees well, but that doesn’t mean that these pilots are not proud of what they do and give 110% when they fly to keep their passengers safe. These pilots are just normal working people who love to fly and love what they do and should not be blamed for bad management.

If you want to argue about Mesa’s bad management and about Ornstein then go for it, but I don’t believe for one second that’s enough to keep the Hawai’i people from taking advantage of low fares to travel around the islands.

-Arturo

the go! logo is included in the video, it is the same company! Thats why I posted the video. Mesa (thinks they) can afford to continue flying with unsustainable airfares while forcing their employees to do "camping trips" across the mainland. Instead of raising their fares to a profitable level they downsize the local Honolulu base and force the remaining pilots to work even harder!

The go! pilots are pissed with Mesa also. We have already hired one of the go! pilots he finished ground school today and will go to simulator next week and should be flying an Aloha 737 before Christmas.

Four more go! pilots are interviewing next week at Aloha here in Honolulu. Just about every go! pilot in Hawaii is begging Aloha to hire them. The Mesa / go! pilots are NOT PROUD of their airline.

Here is proof of that. http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacif...l?surround=lfn

Thats not a cheap shot. The Mesa and go! pilots are INFURIATED with their managements lying and their ADMITTED plan to bankrupt aloha by overworking the Mesa labor force via camping trips and chronic understaffing.

The Mesa and go! pilots GET IT. Aloha is a good airline, Mesa is a horrible one. They are voting no confidence with their feet. For every go! pilot that gets hired at Aloha 3 more are just quitting for someplace else.

MESA SUCKS I can say that I worked at that shithole long enough to have personal knowledge of THAT FACT.

Please explain to me what part of this post is closed minded. Mahalo.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

If you want to argue about Mesa’s bad management and about Ornstein then go for it, but I don’t believe for one second that’s enough to keep the Hawai’i people from taking advantage of low fares to travel around the islands.

-Arturo

Aloha and Hawaiian match those cheap fares seat for seat so if you would rather fly on a cramped RJ instead of a boeing than have fun! I hope you get your bags!

There is no reason to fly go!

It's not less expensive, only cheaper.

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha and Hawaiian match those cheap fares seat for seat so if you would rather fly on a cramped RJ instead of a boeing than have fun! I hope you get your bags!

There is no reason to fly go!

It's not less expensive, only cheaper.

Actually I really don't think these cheap fares will last a day after Go! leaves the market. It was the same way with all of the other start up airlines. We've seen this episode before, it's like "deja vu all over again :-P"

Mid Pacific Air, Mahalo Air, they both fell victim to the predatory practices that Aloha and Hawaiian are complaining about today.

When both of those airlines entered the market, Aloha and Hawaiian totally cut fares to drive those airlines out of business and prevent them from gaining market share. Same thing they are doing today with the $19 fares. Maybe the intent to bankrupt the startups wasn't vocalized but the intent was there. Any businessman can see that.

The difference this time is that Mesa has deeper pockets.

I don't doubt that Mesa runs lean, runs it's employes hard and drives productivity. But I'm still rooting for them so that local airfare pricing is competitive. And anyway, you guys need the competition to harden and toughen up the company for the H4 Superferry war. Go! takes market share, H4 makes the pie smaller.

Nothing against you. Just want to see better prices. Peace buddy.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

How is he wrong? The site you pointed to us shows (looking at the Hawaiian one), that there is a monthly guarantee of 75 hours. If that's not what it means, please explain. As for hours and days away from home, uh....flying a 717 means interisland, isn't it safe to say all 717 pilots get to go home everyday? And even if you were away from home for a flight, don't you get comped with room, and per diem? Not every pilot is married and has family. You make it sound like being away is nothing but misery. Heck, isn't that part of the lure of being a pilot, getting to travel around?

Doesn't the FAA and EASA have a part in airline safety too?

There goes that mentality again, that every anti-Hawaiian/Aloha remark or comment must be those evil Mesa folks.

75 hours a month of flight pay. This is only while the airplane is under its own power.

A typical five day "trip" away from home will net most pilots less than 30 hours of pay. This is because the FAA limits pilots to 30 hours of flight time in 7 days.

"SOUNDS AWESOME WHERE DO I SIGN UP" you might say. "I would love to have a 30 hour work week" you are probably thinking. now go watch the TIRED PILOTS video again and tell me if you really think this is glamorous. Wheres the "comped hotel"? Why aren't they out spending all their per diem?

Five days away from home sleeping is metal tubes for only 20 something hours of compensation is not what any of these pilots signed up for.

Inter Island Hawaii is much nicer but these schedules where we are home every night are the exception. No other airlines operate this way. Not even go!

Even Inter Island, to get 75 hours of pay we will be in airports or airplanes almost double that amount of time. But it is a good deal and we will defend it. But those are "work rules" not pay. Do you have a problem with our work rules too? Should we sleep away from home and camp out in the Boeings to save you another five dollars on your airfare?

Aloha is already the LOWEST paid 737 operator in the nation. How much less should we take so you can get $39 fares?

You can use the same charts at airlinepilotcentral.com to see THATS Aloha is already the lowest paid 737 operator.

How much cheaper would you like us to be?

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I don't doubt that Mesa runs lean, runs it's employes hard and drives productivity. But I'm still rooting for them so that local airfare pricing is competitive. And anyway, you guys need the competition to harden and toughen up the company for the H4 Superferry war. Go! takes market share, H4 makes the pie smaller.

Nothing against you. Just want to see better prices. Peace buddy.

Nice post, I can agree in principle, but Mesa is not the one bringing competition. Mesa is hurting it. A real competitor, James Delano's Fly Hawaii was axed because of Mesa and Island Air had to return the MOST EFFICIENT airplane (Dash 8 Q400) from Hawaii's skies and market because of Mesa's predatory actions.