Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

75 hours a month of flight pay. And this is what 808shooter was pointing out earlier.

[B]Hmmm. This data is very interesting. Let's say I was a first year captain at Hawaiian on a 717 (smaller jet).

Your entire post is meaningless because, you begin the entire post with a huge mis-assumption. There are no 1st year 717 captains at Hawaiian. The most junior Captain at Hawaiian was hired Aug 1991. So there are only 15+ year captains at Hawaiian. Any pilots with less than 15 years longevity gets FO pay.

Hawaiian still has 52 pilots on furlough. They make a whopping zero every month.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

From some earlier calculations I made, I believe all the interisland carriers could be profitable if they normally charged around $70/OW. It appears that even with the low low interisland fares now, the peak demand for seats has declined anyway (partly due to the fact that HA and AQ increased the number of seats available) except around holidays, so I think that means that most people who wanted to fly to a neighbor island have gotten that out of their system.

If go!, HA and AQ all had seats that were regularly priced at $70/OW (with periodic "price wars") and started selling coupon books for frequent commuters (this is actually a good idea, because, like buying a book of postage stamps, the company gets the value of the entire coupon book up front which they can then invest), the differentiator would be on the service each carrier provided (most on-time, most convenient schedule, fewer lost bags, fewer cancelled flights, etc.). Would people still fly interisland? Of course they would. And they would remember the days when a ticket cost $100/OW or more and think they were getting a bargain now.

Right now, I think the shareholders of Mesa and HA and the owners of AQ are all not very happy. Shareholder expectations of a profit are what drive the consumers' perception of a company's being "greedy", and like supermarkets, the operating margin is very tight to begin with.

Miulang

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Actually I would like Aloha to be an average paying operator. If I was god, the entire industry would be have it's pay structure revamped. And adjusted downwards quite a bit. Your comp is not that obscene. Just kind of obscene. The majors pilots comp is really really offensive.

If $39 fares are what the market would dictate, so be it. That is the way capitalism works in every other industry. Technology changes industries and the global economy is changing industries. Unions have been artificially been holding up your comp for far too long. Competition will force the market to adjust eventually. By Unions keeping operating costs artificially high, it's hurts your ability to compete.


I am not familiar with this. Could you elaborate?

I will fairly judge any information you bring to the table and - caw caw - eat crow if justified. I will even become a loud advocate if I agree with you. I don't need to be right, I'd rather be educated.

Fly Hawaii was to be owned by ex-Lion Coffee CEO James Delano. Very well liked Honolulu businessman.

James Delano's Fly Hawaii shuts down Delano lost his investors because of Mesa's early drumbeating about starting a predatory battle in hawaii.

The Q400 has some of the lowest costs of any aircraft and is the "perfect" aircraft for Hawaii's inter-island market. The only operator of this aircraft is Island Air and they are suffering immensely from Mesa's scorched Earth policy in Hawaii.

Island Air sidelines its biggest airplane, blames continued predatory unsustainable pricing by Mesa.

Mesa is not here to stimulate competition, rather they are ruining it.

Happy Thanksgiving! Dont eat crow, eat turkey!

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

75 hours a month of flight pay. This is only while the airplane is under its own power.

A typical five day "trip" away from home will net most pilots less than 30 hours of pay. This is because the FAA limits pilots to 30 hours of flight time in 7 days.

75 hours a month of flight pay. And this is what 808shooter was pointing out earlier.

Hmmm. This data is very interesting. Let's say I was a first year captain at Hawaiian on a 717 (smaller jet). I make $146 per hour with a guaranteed 75 hours a month?

$146 * 75 = $10,950 per month minimum or $131,400 annually at a minimum.

So that is pretty good comp as it is. And I've stated before, newbie pilots do get shafted and their plight needs to be addressed. But I'm tired of hearing the plight of all pilots because those that are captains or have served as FOs for a few years on either Aloha or Hawaiian make decent dollars. By the way, it's 75 hours a month, 30 flight hours in 7 days still translates to 120 flight hours a month using 4 weeks as a rough estimate for a month. The FAA doesn't crimp a pilot's ability to make money.

"SOUNDS AWESOME WHERE DO I SIGN UP" you might say. "I would love to have a 30 hour work week" you are probably thinking. now go watch the TIRED PILOTS video again and tell me if you really think this is glamorous. Wheres the "comped hotel"? Why aren't they out spending all their per diem?

Five days away from home sleeping is metal tubes for only 20 something hours of compensation is not what any of these pilots signed up for.

Inter Island Hawaii is much nicer but these schedules where we are home every night are the exception. No other airlines operate this way. Not even go!

Where are you going with this argument? If you read all my posts, I have not defended Mesa. You responded to 808shooter's reply about how much a 717 1st year captain at Hawaiian can make with remarks of being away from home and no pay during nonflight hours. I responded by pointing out how often is a Hawaiian 717 pilot away from home considering it's an interisland route?

I also realized that your reply to 808shooter could also be a generalized statement of the airline industry. And so my second response was, even if a pilot is away, there is comped hotel and per diem, NOT specifically at Mesa, but there are other airlines that do.

I already know Mesa is flogging their pilots and it's a bad thing that needs to be fixed. What I'm trying to point out is that many Hawaiian/Aloha pilots have it good and they still complain. They justify they need even more higher pay because a pilot's life is hard especially when they first start out. All I'm saying is, with your unions and collective bargaining, you guys should fix the problems with newbie pilot pay. Make it reasonable and on the top end, you need to trim the top end pay so you don't look like greedy pigs. But then again, human nature, so maybe it's a moot point.

Even Inter Island, to get 75 hours of pay we will be in airports or airplanes almost double that amount of time. But it is a good deal and we will defend it. But those are "work rules" not pay. Do you have a problem with our work rules too? Should we sleep away from home and camp out in the Boeings to save you another five dollars on your airfare?

Aloha is already the LOWEST paid 737 operator in the nation. How much less should we take so you can get $39 fares?

You can use the same charts at airlinepilotcentral.com to see THATS Aloha is already the lowest paid 737 operator.

How much cheaper would you like us to be?

Okay, double the 75 hours, that's 150 hours a month, multiplied by 12 months and we get 1800 hours a year. Dividing that back by 52 weeks, we get 34.62 hours a week. That's sure lot less than a 40 hour work week that most of us have to pull. So how hard is that really? A first year FO on Aloha makes $23 an hour, which is $41400 a year, not bad for a less than 40 hour work week. And the following year, the pay already bumps up to $53 an hour.

This is where people like you and HERO make a mistake. You think the flying public (most of us at least) EXPECTS a $39 interisland fare. Hardly the truth. I know $39 and all the other lower promotional fares are not sustainable. I will take them as long as they last. But what I and most of the public are upset about was how in the past, fares easily hit $100 each way. What I like to have seen was maybe fares of around $60. What I like to have seen was Hawaiian and Aloha compete, spark periodic promotional interisland price wars, not collusion every step of the way. What I like to have seen was Hawaiian and Aloha managed their costs more instead of just always using the excuse, "it's expensive to fly". I'm sure it's expensive to fly for Southwest but they manage to weather the storms and make money. And I don't think they have union yet their crews are happy. What I like to see now is HERO be passionate about how they can make Hawaiian and Aloha be profitable and yet still give a fair low price to the people of Hawaii, not just Mesa bashing. You guys manage to give out some pretty good Hawaii-mainland airfares, why can't you for interisland? If maybe Aloha/Hawaiian/HERO were as passionate about their local customers in the past as they are now about their jobs, you wouldn't need to be fighting this battle with Mesa. There's a backlash from the Hawaii public at Aloha and Hawaiian cuz you guys come out shouting, "support your local airlines, we're here for you, we're real "Hawaiian" airlines," but you could care less what you charged us in the past when there was no Mesa to annoy you.

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha is already the LOWEST paid 737 operator in the nation. How much less should we take so you can get $39 fares?

You can use the same charts at airlinepilotcentral.com to see THATS Aloha is already the lowest paid 737 operator.

How much cheaper would you like us to be?

Actually I would like Aloha to be an average paying operator. If I was god, the entire industry would be have it's pay structure revamped. And adjusted downwards quite a bit. Your comp is not that obscene. Just kind of obscene. The majors pilots comp is really really offensive.

If $39 fares are what the market would dictate, so be it. That is the way capitalism works in every other industry. Technology changes industries and the global economy is changing industries. Unions have been artificially been holding up your comp for far too long. Competition will force the market to adjust eventually. By Unions keeping operating costs artificially high, it's hurts your ability to compete.

Nice post, I can agree in principle, but Mesa is not the one bringing competition. Mesa is hurting it. A real competitor, James Delano's Fly Hawaii was axed because of Mesa and Island Air had to return the MOST EFFICIENT airplane (Dash 8 Q400) from Hawaii's skies and market because of Mesa's predatory actions.

I am not familiar with this. Could you elaborate?

I will fairly judge any information you bring to the table and - caw caw - eat crow if justified. I will even become a loud advocate if I agree with you. I don't need to be right, I'd rather be educated.

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

And by the way, if I were a Mesa pilot, I'd be looking to jump to Aloha also. Did you see their hourly rates? Those rates didn't even include an unspecified salary.

And I guess you are a pilot. Well, I will be more civil. Everyone has to be looking out for #1. I don't blame you personally but you do comp waaaay better than the vast majority of folks out there.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I don't doubt that Mesa runs lean, runs it's employes hard and drives productivity. But I'm still rooting for them so that local airfare pricing is competitive. And anyway, you guys need the competition to harden and toughen up the company for the H4 Superferry war. Go! takes market share, H4 makes the pie smaller.

Nothing against you. Just want to see better prices. Peace buddy.

Nice post, I can agree in principle, but Mesa is not the one bringing competition. Mesa is hurting it. A real competitor, James Delano's Fly Hawaii was axed because of Mesa and Island Air had to return the MOST EFFICIENT airplane (Dash 8 Q400) from Hawaii's skies and market because of Mesa's predatory actions.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

How is he wrong? The site you pointed to us shows (looking at the Hawaiian one), that there is a monthly guarantee of 75 hours. If that's not what it means, please explain. As for hours and days away from home, uh....flying a 717 means interisland, isn't it safe to say all 717 pilots get to go home everyday? And even if you were away from home for a flight, don't you get comped with room, and per diem? Not every pilot is married and has family. You make it sound like being away is nothing but misery. Heck, isn't that part of the lure of being a pilot, getting to travel around?

Doesn't the FAA and EASA have a part in airline safety too?

There goes that mentality again, that every anti-Hawaiian/Aloha remark or comment must be those evil Mesa folks.

75 hours a month of flight pay. This is only while the airplane is under its own power.

A typical five day "trip" away from home will net most pilots less than 30 hours of pay. This is because the FAA limits pilots to 30 hours of flight time in 7 days.

"SOUNDS AWESOME WHERE DO I SIGN UP" you might say. "I would love to have a 30 hour work week" you are probably thinking. now go watch the TIRED PILOTS video again and tell me if you really think this is glamorous. Wheres the "comped hotel"? Why aren't they out spending all their per diem?

Five days away from home sleeping is metal tubes for only 20 something hours of compensation is not what any of these pilots signed up for.

Inter Island Hawaii is much nicer but these schedules where we are home every night are the exception. No other airlines operate this way. Not even go!

Even Inter Island, to get 75 hours of pay we will be in airports or airplanes almost double that amount of time. But it is a good deal and we will defend it. But those are "work rules" not pay. Do you have a problem with our work rules too? Should we sleep away from home and camp out in the Boeings to save you another five dollars on your airfare?

Aloha is already the LOWEST paid 737 operator in the nation. How much less should we take so you can get $39 fares?

You can use the same charts at airlinepilotcentral.com to see THATS Aloha is already the lowest paid 737 operator.

How much cheaper would you like us to be?

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha and Hawaiian match those cheap fares seat for seat so if you would rather fly on a cramped RJ instead of a boeing than have fun! I hope you get your bags!

There is no reason to fly go!

It's not less expensive, only cheaper.

Actually I really don't think these cheap fares will last a day after Go! leaves the market. It was the same way with all of the other start up airlines. We've seen this episode before, it's like "deja vu all over again :-P"

Mid Pacific Air, Mahalo Air, they both fell victim to the predatory practices that Aloha and Hawaiian are complaining about today.

When both of those airlines entered the market, Aloha and Hawaiian totally cut fares to drive those airlines out of business and prevent them from gaining market share. Same thing they are doing today with the $19 fares. Maybe the intent to bankrupt the startups wasn't vocalized but the intent was there. Any businessman can see that.

The difference this time is that Mesa has deeper pockets.

I don't doubt that Mesa runs lean, runs it's employes hard and drives productivity. But I'm still rooting for them so that local airfare pricing is competitive. And anyway, you guys need the competition to harden and toughen up the company for the H4 Superferry war. Go! takes market share, H4 makes the pie smaller.

Nothing against you. Just want to see better prices. Peace buddy.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

If you want to argue about Mesa’s bad management and about Ornstein then go for it, but I don’t believe for one second that’s enough to keep the Hawai’i people from taking advantage of low fares to travel around the islands.

-Arturo

Aloha and Hawaiian match those cheap fares seat for seat so if you would rather fly on a cramped RJ instead of a boeing than have fun! I hope you get your bags!

There is no reason to fly go!

It's not less expensive, only cheaper.

[aloha-anon]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Aloha-anon, you're close-mindedness is getting very annoying. We understand that you probably work for Aloha, but the things you're posting aren't going convince any of us open-minded, "smart" consumers that Aloha and Hawaiian completely in the right and that Mesa is completely in the wrong, I mean it's clear as day.

To post a link about pilots not getting enough sleep is a cheap shot at Mesa since there's no evidence that they're talking about go! pilots, and we all know that every pilot for every airline has had the same problems. Would you have posted these things about Mesa if they never came to the islands? I don’t think so.

Mesa’s management may not treat their employees well, but that doesn’t mean that these pilots are not proud of what they do and give 110% when they fly to keep their passengers safe. These pilots are just normal working people who love to fly and love what they do and should not be blamed for bad management.

If you want to argue about Mesa’s bad management and about Ornstein then go for it, but I don’t believe for one second that’s enough to keep the Hawai’i people from taking advantage of low fares to travel around the islands.

-Arturo

the go! logo is included in the video, it is the same company! Thats why I posted the video. Mesa (thinks they) can afford to continue flying with unsustainable airfares while forcing their employees to do "camping trips" across the mainland. Instead of raising their fares to a profitable level they downsize the local Honolulu base and force the remaining pilots to work even harder!

The go! pilots are pissed with Mesa also. We have already hired one of the go! pilots he finished ground school today and will go to simulator next week and should be flying an Aloha 737 before Christmas.

Four more go! pilots are interviewing next week at Aloha here in Honolulu. Just about every go! pilot in Hawaii is begging Aloha to hire them. The Mesa / go! pilots are NOT PROUD of their airline.

Here is proof of that. http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacif...l?surround=lfn

Thats not a cheap shot. The Mesa and go! pilots are INFURIATED with their managements lying and their ADMITTED plan to bankrupt aloha by overworking the Mesa labor force via camping trips and chronic understaffing.

The Mesa and go! pilots GET IT. Aloha is a good airline, Mesa is a horrible one. They are voting no confidence with their feet. For every go! pilot that gets hired at Aloha 3 more are just quitting for someplace else.

MESA SUCKS I can say that I worked at that shithole long enough to have personal knowledge of THAT FACT.

Please explain to me what part of this post is closed minded. Mahalo.

[808shooter]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I'm with Gecko on this one. Would I want to put my life and the lives of my fellow passengers in the hands of a disgruntled pilot? I don't think so.

The new planes today fly themselves. That includes take off and landing by themselves. There are probably ex-military aviators and skilled pilots out there that would jump at the chance to work part-time and get paid lets say 80-100K.

Firefighters work similiar shifts, put their life on the line yet make much less. Would you trust a firefighter saving you from a burning building just because the guy only made 60-70K?

Besides the fact that pilots have to go through all kinds of training (if they are not military veterans), they also have extremely rigid health standards,

all kinds of professions have rigid training requirments/health standards. Police, engineers, life guards, nurses, doctors, you name it. The real test is comparing the comp of a union vs non union employee. all types of workers that are union and non-union have reasonably comparable pay rates.

Except pilots. If the non-union pilot makes $18,000 and the union tenured pilot makes $150K+ part time, you know their pay scale is out of whack.

and they are forced to retire at age 60, no matter how physically fit they are.

riiiight, that's to make way for a new batch of pilots and have the older ones retire on a TOTALLY cushy penion. How can retired life get better than that?

It's kinda like a pro athlete (although I am appalled at how much some of them get paid more than I am at how much a pilot gets paid), whose professional career might only span 10-15 years.

I don't cry over professional athletes because their comp does not make their business model unsustainable. If there were a competitive league that started and the NFL started crying about competition being unfair and driving down their profits, then I'd say "get a grip" and feel the same way. Also the advertisers pay their salaries on a national level via the network tv stations and stadium revenues. They deserve their pay. The generate the income for the business and industry and it is market driven.

Pilot pay is not market driven.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

Man at $18,000 per year they're better off collecting welfare or at least working at WalMart. There must be some incentive for pay that low for pilots.

The incentive is a foot in the door into the world of flying and potentially pay increases and career ops. But companies like Mesa aren't providing any of the latter so their pilots are getting disgruntled. It is on this end of the spectrum that I do support the pilots in getting better working conditions. When it's on the other end, the ones who are making bank, saying they need more, those are the ones I really don't have sympathy for. Yes, pilots have to invest in training but so do engineers. Why aren't they guaranteed premo wages and pensions? Are they not doing something important when they are designing that plane you are flying on?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

I'm with Gecko on this one. Would I want to put my life and the lives of my fellow passengers in the hands of a disgruntled pilot? I don't think so.

Besides the fact that pilots have to go through all kinds of training (if they are not military veterans), they also have extremely rigid health standards, and they are forced to retire at age 60, no matter how physically fit they are.

It's kinda like a pro athlete (although I am appalled at how much some of them get paid more than I am at how much a pilot gets paid), whose professional career might only span 10-15 years. Even though the annual wages look exorbitant, if you break it down further into maybe 40 years (the average amount of time any person will probably work), the annual amount comes to much less, amortized over 40 years.

And yes, the regional pilots do get shafted pay-wise. They fly smaller planes and surprise, surprise, many of them are women!

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 2

To be fair, some regional pilots working on the mainland do get shafted on the pay, something like as little as $18,000 a year. And in those instances, I fully support something needs to be done to fix that injustice. But the pilots of Aloha and Hawaiian who are captains or a FO with quite a few years don't get much sympathy because they bring in a nice amount as is.

Man at $18,000 per year they're better off collecting welfare or at least working at WalMart. There must be some incentive for pay that low for pilots.