Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

[Miulang]

What da &$&% are "Mainland" names???

These were the arrested: Hamm, Nieto, Zebe, Kirkpatrick, Valiere, Valiere, Pa

How does one tell between a mainland name and a non-mainland name Muilang?

Kirkpatrick is not an Asian or kanaka name. Neither is Hamm or Valiere. Pa and Nieto might be. That is not to say that all may or may not be from long-standing kama'aina families. And if you agree that's true, then no one can say that it's not locals v. locals.

Miulang

This whole neighbor island vs Oahu spiel is getting rather old. If the neighbor islands hate Oahu so much, expand your airports and your ports to have all your flights and shipping direct to the outside world. All I hear is Oahu people want this, Oahu people want that. Yet no one ever acknowledges the ton of stuff that always comes through Oahu's ports to be rerouted to the neighbor islands. Where's the concern for contraband there? Where's the concern for traffic impact? Where's the concern for harbor space? Oh that's right, the neighbor islands don't care about that. Maybe it's better to break the state apart. Everyone be much happier.

Josh...that's why I said what I did. It's the PERCEPTION. I didn't create that perception. The challenge is how to change that perception for the Neighbor Island people who feel that way? Got any ideas? I'm stumped on that one. Yes, the Neighbor Island people DO care about harbor space. They are almost totally reliant on Honolulu shipping them their basic necessities. Until the State does something to expand harbor facilities (or builds a new harbor someplace else), they have no options. None. Nada. If you had to choose between getting your food and critical supplies v. having ohana visit, which would you choose? That is what the Year 2030 Master Plan for Kahului Commercial Harbor is supposed to determine: the projected needs for space within Kahului Harbor for all users, which includes HSF.

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Nobody's mad at Oahu. Thats as silly as the rest of their supposed causes.

They are mad. Period.

Mad that they are living paycheck to paycheck.
Mad that they need to remind themselves that they live in Paradise but never have time to go to the beach.
Mad at the highest gas prices, highest food prices, highest taxes in the nation.
Mad that the High tech, hollywood, corporate CEO millionaires live the high life right in front of them. See Kahului and Kona Airport private jets etc.
Mad that Hawaii's 200 year one party political system has never worked.
Mad that the price of the house TimKona said would go up for 16 years is going down.
Mad that the best jobs go according to who you know not what you know.
Mad that everyone spends all their energy trying to be more "local" then the next guy.

Thats the kinds of things they are mad at. Not Oahu.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Josh...that's why I said what I did. It's the PERCEPTION. I didn't create that perception. The challenge is how to change that perception for the Neighbor Island people who feel that way? Got any ideas? I'm stumped on that one. Yes, the Neighbor Island people DO care about harbor space. They are almost totally reliant on Honolulu shipping them their basic necessities. Until the State does something to expand harbor facilities (or builds a new harbor someplace else), they have no options. None. Nada. If you had to choose between getting your food and critical supplies v. having ohana visit, which would you choose? That is what the Year 2030 Master Plan for Kahului Commercial Harbor is supposed to determine: the projected needs for space within Kahului Harbor for all users, which includes HSF.

Miulang

Here's a basic premise that will never change, not unless this country topples and we have another form of government. Under our current system, majority rules. Having said that, Oahu has the majority of the population. So this isn't some conspiracy theory that Oahu is out to get you neighbor islanders. The ironic thing is, you don't wish to see your island become another Oahu, you don't want to see your population reach Oahu's levels, yet by doing that, you remain the minority. So what challenge, you have to accept one outcome or the other and live with it. There's nothing biased or personal, it's just the nature of the beast.

As for the critical supplies vs ohana, this is again another emotionally stirred up, groundless scenario. Has there been a shortage of supplies? And if that's the case, why aren't you booting NCL? Or even Pasha Hawaii? PH only transports vehicles, hardly critical supplies.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

As for the critical supplies vs ohana, this is again another emotionally stirred up, groundless scenario. Has there been a shortage of supplies? And if that's the case, why aren't you booting NCL? Or even Pasha Hawaii? PH only transports vehicles, hardly critical supplies.

All I know is, HSF took away about 25% of YB's footprint in Kahului Harbor. The State bought a little bit more A&B land to help out YB in the short term. YB promised not to get out of the LCL business for the time being, even if they have to continue subsidizing it and it will require the LCL loads to be warehoused somewhere away from the harbor itself. If you read the Intention to file and EIS for the Year 2030 Master Plan, the population of Maui is projected to grow significantly by 2030 (estimated to just under 200,000 in this State study). The current facilities and capacity of YB (which doesn't do daily runs right now) is expected not to be able to meet the need.

Why YB isn't complaining more, I don't know. Maybe the State slipped them a few concessions to keep quiet. If NCL pulls out of Hawai'i completely (which is what they are studying) then the situation might be eased for a little longer because then there might be more space for HSF to dock in NCL's berthing area. But then the local businesses would gripe and be hurt because each boatload of tourists spending 2 days on Maui would bring in more money than 2 days' worth of HSF passengers who bring their own cars and stay with ohana.

You can read what will go into the draft EIS for the Year 2030 Plan here.

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

So you quoted only a tiny fraction of a story -- the tiny fraction that supported your own Seattle-based biases. Well guess what -- I too quoted only a fraction of the story, so I did not violate the rules of HT but I DID provide the TRUE meaning of the story.
You're just too shameless to understand the difference.
But what do you have to say about the 200+ Maui farmers who support the SuperFerry?
What do you have to say about the President of that same group being on the SuperFerry's advisory council?!?
Stop ignoring the FACTS.

No, what's totally nuts is your complete avoidance of answering my questions.
You always presume to be the spokesperson for all of Mau`i, so I'm sure we'd all like to hear the answers to my questions above.
I'll keep reminding you, in case you 'conveniently' miss reading this.
Like I did when you offered flagrantly wrong legal advice to someone in a different thread, as you may recall.
Heh, indeed.
Now answer the questions, please.

Apparently Miulang missed both of those posts above. Surely she can't be hiding from two simple questions. Maybe she's frantically searching the internet for any kind of viable answer.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Here's a basic premise that will never change, not unless this country topples and we have another form of government. Under our current system, majority rules. Having said that, Oahu has the majority of the population. So this isn't some conspiracy theory that Oahu is out to get you neighbor islanders. The ironic thing is, you don't wish to see your island become another Oahu, you don't want to see your population reach Oahu's levels, yet by doing that, you remain the minority. So what challenge, you have to accept one outcome or the other and live with it. There's nothing biased or personal, it's just the nature of the beast.

As for the critical supplies vs ohana, this is again another emotionally stirred up, groundless scenario. Has there been a shortage of supplies? And if that's the case, why aren't you booting NCL? Or even Pasha Hawaii? PH only transports vehicles, hardly critical supplies.

Conversely, though, some Neighbor Islanders think Honolulu people just want to use their island as a weekend getaway from their lives in the city. Call them country bumpkins who are scared of change if you will, but that is the sad reality. In the good old days when I was a small kid, people couldn't wait to go to Honolulu because that was where Ala Moana Shopping Center was and people would go to Honoluu to do most of their school shopping, for instance. But now Maui has a Costco, it's got Walmart, it's got almost everything the people on the island need (except maybe for decent manapua). Hell, it's even got the State's only KK outlet! So there's less of an urgency or desire to travel to Honolulu for anything but visiting ohana. And there are enough direct flights to OGG from mainland gateways that not as many people stop at HNL anymore if their final destination is Maui.

Oh yeah, majority rules in elections and such, but possession is 9/10 of the law (as in home rule). So the people who live on the island have more say about what happens on their island than visitors do. The same could be said for Oahu, Kaua'i, the Big Island, Moloka'i and Lana'i. And if Home Rule does prevail, then all 3 Neighbor Island counties have already petitioned the State to require an EIS for HSF.

Miulang

[MatildaRose]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I think you are getting closer to the answer MatildaRose. I’ve been struggling to put my finger on this and have been fascinated with the events because I believe they are a sign of deeper currents.

This is not a racial issue. Its not a local versus anything else issue. It’s not even an environmental or development issue (maybe just a tinge of development but only for indirect reasons).

This is a classic historical Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie battle. This is the steam being let off by those who perceive themselves as being at the “bottom” of the economic ladder yet surrounded with those who are at the “top”. It includes the hippie organic haole type, it includes the plantation Asians who aren’t making it right now, it includes Hawaiians who still aren’t surviving in their own land. In fact, it includes just about anyone who is struggling to survive in “Paradise” and that includes most people.

Maybe it’s more visible on Maui and Kauai because those Islands have become the land of the rich and the poor. They look like South America or Western China where the masses of poor are ruled by the filthy rich. Where the poor have to watch the rich live and play right in front of their eyes. That breeds envy and anger and this is the type of tantrum that gets thrown because that’s the only power these people feel they have.

I think we’re getting closer to at least explaining this unusual situation. But if I’m right, Hawaii is heading for some challenging times in the next few years. Social unrest may be on the rise unfortunately. And it may not be limited to Native Hawaiians.

Interesting.

Thank you for a very thoughtful post, and it definitely is an interesting situation. I was trying to carefully choose my words, perhaps too carefully, as I agree that this is not a racial issue. It also is not a neighbor island versus Oahu issue. Heck, I have close friends in both Makaha and Haleiwa who jokingly refer to me as a "townie," just as neighbor island friends refer to me as being "from Oahu." I believe you're right; we are in for some challenging times.

[dick]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Conversely, though, some Neighbor Islanders think Honolulu people just want to use their island as a weekend getaway from their lives in the city.

And?

I pay state taxes which are used on Oahu as well as other islands in the chain. I'm happy to go and use state roads and facilities on other islands, thank you.

Anyway, I still don't get the difference between those evil "Honolulu people" flying over and renting cars versus taking a ferry and using their own car. Same thing.

No, really. It is.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

And?

I pay state taxes which are used on islands other than Oahu as well. I'm happy to go and use state roads and facilities on other islands, thank you.

Anyway, I still don't get the difference between those evil "Honolulu people" flying over and renting cars versus taking a ferry and using their own car. Same thing.

No, really. It is.

I told you, it's THEIR perception, not necessarily mine. Renting a car means jobs at the rental agency. Bringing your own car means no cars are rented. Not the same thing. Having 200 rental cars not rented every day because people off island decide to bring their cars over on HSF isn't going to do too much to dent that revenue stream, that's true (especially if the majority of HSF passengers are locals and not Mainland tourists). Because lots of times now, you can't even FIND a rental if you just show up at OGG and try to get one. The rental cars are sometimes booked out completely when special events occur.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Conversely, though, some Neighbor Islanders think Honolulu people just want to use their island as a weekend getaway from their lives in the city. Call them country bumpkins who are scared of change if you will, but that is the sad reality. In the good old days when I was a small kid, people couldn't wait to go to Honolulu because that was where Ala Moana Shopping Center was and people would go to Honoluu to do most of their school shopping, for instance. But now Maui has a Costco, it's got Walmart, it's got almost everything the people on the island need (except maybe for decent manapua). Hell, it's even got the State's only KK outlet! So there's less of an urgency or desire to travel to Honolulu for anything but visiting ohana. And there are enough direct flights to OGG from mainland gateways that not as many people stop at HNL anymore if their final destination is Maui.

Oh yeah, majority rules in elections and such, but possession is 9/10 of the law (as in home rule). So the people who live on the island have more say about what happens on their island than visitors do. The same could be said for Oahu, Kaua'i, the Big Island, Moloka'i and Lana'i. And if Home Rule does prevail, then all 3 Neighbor Island counties have already petitioned the State to require an EIS for HSF.

Miulang

Actually, wouldn't that be a good thing? Weekend gateways where people from Honolulu come and spend money at your place, then leave? And because they are also from Hawaii, they won't be as clueless and offending as other tourists?

So...regarding home rule, if people from Oahu get fed up with being the doormat for your goods from the mainland, would you agree it's the right of Oahu to close off their ports to your needs?

When the ferry concept came into being, I was looking forward to it because I saw it as an opportunity to create a new synergy between the islands. I'm not saying I wish any of the other islands become another concrete jungle but it would have been cool to see some sort of synergy like how California has SF vs LA or West Coast vs East Coast. But after seeing all this bickering and many times, hypocritical bickering at that, probably better off each island become their own state. People be much happier that way.

[MatildaRose]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Josh...that's why I said what I did. It's the PERCEPTION. I didn't create that perception. The challenge is how to change that perception for the Neighbor Island people who feel that way? Got any ideas? I'm stumped on that one. Yes, the Neighbor Island people DO care about harbor space. They are almost totally reliant on Honolulu shipping them their basic necessities. Until the State does something to expand harbor facilities (or builds a new harbor someplace else), they have no options. None. Nada. If you had to choose between getting your food and critical supplies v. having ohana visit, which would you choose? That is what the Year 2030 Master Plan for Kahului Commercial Harbor is supposed to determine: the projected needs for space within Kahului Harbor for all users, which includes HSF.

Miulang

You keep mentioning the Year 2030 Master Plan for Kahului Commercial Harbor, as though that date is a "be-all, end-all" date for Kahului. That's 23 years away, for Pete's sake. By then, HSF will be history and there will be plans to build a bridge to connect the islands. Hawaii doesn't have a stellar track record when it comes to planning (cough), so I would take the Year 2030 Master Plan with a grain of salt. Geez, I'm waiting for Kapiolani Blvd. to be navigable again, which could take until 2015...

[Miulang]

So...regarding home rule, if people from Oahu get fed up with being the doormat for your goods from the mainland, would you agree it's the right of Oahu to close off their ports to your needs?
.

Sure, Oahu could do it. But the Feds and the State wouldn't let you get away with it because that constitutes an illegal embargo. If we could get rid of the Jones Act, and if Kahului Harbor could be expanded, no prob with not getting anything shipped from Honolulu.

You keep mentioning the Year 2030 Master Plan for Kahului Commercial Harbor, as though that date is a "be-all, end-all" date for Kahului. That's 23 years away, for Pete's sake. By then, HSF will be history and there will be plans to build a bridge to connect the islands. Hawaii doesn't have a stellar track record when it comes to planning (cough), so I would take the Year 2030 Master Plan with a grain of salt. Geez, I'm waiting for Kapiolani Blvd. to be navigable again, which could take until 2015...

It is this Master Plan that helps determine which projects get funded between now and then, Matilda. The current Master Plan for Kahului Harbor Year 2025 (last revised in 2002 or 2003, I think) did not have HSF in there as part of the planning because it wasn't a viable project at the time. That's why the State DOT decided to move ahead and do a revised Year 2030 Master Plan for both Kahului and the Big Island's two harbors (Kawaihae and Hilo). The State itself acknowledged that the Year 2025 Plan should have been redone 10 years ago. And HSF is a willing participant in this EIS because it is being consulted and will have permanent berthing as opposed to the barges, tents and Porta-Potties that exist today as HSF ferry terminals.

Miulang

[dick]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Renting a car means jobs at the rental agency. Bringing your own car means no cars are rented. Not the same thing. Having 200 rental cars not rented every day because people off island decide to bring their cars over on HSF isn't going to do too much to dent that revenue stream, that's true (especially if the majority of HSF passengers are locals and not Mainland tourists). Because lots of times now, you can't even FIND a rental if you just show up at OGG and try to get one. The rental cars are sometimes booked out completely when special events occur.

You're not making sense.

I don't rent a car, and I'm hurting the rent-a-car business? Then you go on to say they don't need my business anyway.

I'm well aware of the rental situation on Maui. I use it regularly. Do you? It's expensive, and yes there are times I have to spend outrageous amounts just to get one. They're not hurting for business. Lot's of tourists use them all the time. Daily, in fact.

It would be nice to bring my own car from Honolulu and void that whole fiasco.

[WindwardOahuRN]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Thank you for a very thoughtful post, and it definitely is an interesting situation. I was trying to carefully choose my words, perhaps too carefully, as I agree that this is not a racial issue. It also is not a neighbor island versus Oahu issue. Heck, I have close friends in both Makaha and Haleiwa who jokingly refer to me as a "townie," just as neighbor island friends refer to me as being "from Oahu." I believe you're right; we are in for some challenging times.

And one bigass earthquake, hurricane, or tsunami will have us all bonding again. Kumbaya.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

You're not making sense.

I don't rent a car, and I'm hurting the rent-a-car business? Then you go on to say they don't need my business anyway.

I'm well aware of the rental situation on Maui. I use it regularly. Do you? It's expensive, and yes there are times I have to spend outrageous amounts just to get one. They're not hurting for business. Lot's of tourists use them all the time. Daily, in fact.

It would be nice to bring my own car from Honolulu and void that whole fiasco.

Yup. I use Aloha Rent-A-Car to avoid paying the premium of a late model car, if I can't borrow my bro's spare car. Last time I rented a car from them for a week, it only cost me about $150.

What I said is, you're right, not having the HSF ferry passengers rent a car on Maui wouldn't be too serious a problem for them because the rental agencies very often don't have any cars to rent out anyway. So as long as the cruise ships keep docking at Kahului Harbor, not having HSF business won't hurt them. If NCL goes away, yeah, then it'll start hurting them. Lots of cruise passengers either rent a car (because it's a 2-day port of call in Kahului) or they used to walk into the Maui Mall area for their souvenirs and goodies. Now that Ala Luina is closed off (that was the most direct shot to Maui Mall from the cruise ships), I don't know if the passengers on foot have to hoof it on Hobron and cross Hana Hwy at that very dangerous 5-way intersection or if there's now a shuttle that gets them safely to Maui Mall.

Miulang