Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Boy, the HSF values are just an approximation - and probably worst case. It appears they are taking the engine ratings and assuming full power during the entire run. That's iffy at best.

Then there's the whole question - is a gallon of Jet Fuel the "same" as a gallon of diesel? I don't think so.

Wow 317 gallons per trip? That's pretty good gas mileage considering the weight and distance travelled. At that cost I can't imagine why Aloha airlines or Hawaiian are bitching about rising fuel costs with MPG ratings like that. How much is a gallon of jet fuel nowdays anyway?

I think my Chevy AWD AstroVan would get less fuel efficiency if having to bear the same load and distances

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

And what's up with the endless posting of news that those of us who live here already know about?

Yes, and I'm SO glad you started a thread on O.J.'s latest troubles - because of course I NEVER would have seen that news here on the Mainland. Come on, LN - we're all global now. Remember when I posted the Seattle paper's story about the Costco in Iwilei? Sometimes, there are Island stories that not everyone in the Islands might see. I think it's worth the risk to post a link that might already be common knowledge to some of you there - because there are a LOT of non-residents who read these threads, and may not catch every story that's in the Advertiser or Star-Bulletin each day.

Like me or hate me, I will continue to call bullshift on anyone who misleads, insults or attacks us.

It ain't about liking/hating you - it's about a style of communication here. I am glad to see anyone can challenge anyone else on the "facts" of their postings - it's happening in the "Mortgage Mayhem" thread to great effect at present, with a lot of good questions being brought up and answered. None of us should automatically take the word of anyone else here (though, in many cases, a number of regular posters have shown a strong track record of being sources of excellent information in their respective areas of expertise, and have earned a bit of trust.)

But let's challenge facts with facts, rather than perpetually needling them as to why they posted something that they (and others, even if not you) see as relevant to the discussion, or why they choose not to answer all of your questions. Their failure to answer will serve to reflect on whether or not the validity of their information can be trusted.

Just as you don't want Miulang to present the information that she wishes to post, I don't need you or anyone else to keep telling me that I can or cannot judge the value of that information for myself. Give me facts that counter hers, make it a respectful exchange of information, a fair debate - and let me make up my own mind on my opinions. Don't de-volve so often into yelling, pseudo-profanities, and a bunch of frowny faces, that's what I'm asking. Please.

I say this because I personally DO know both you and Miulang (though only a little bit, in both cases), and have respect for both your perspectives. You both have something to contribute, something that will add to my understanding of the Superferry issue; but nothing gets accomplished with you yelling "Answer My Questions!!!" at every step, and her saying "I'm ignoring you" right back.

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

As much as I hate to drag this out (and I pray this will end it)...

Yes, and I'm SO glad you started a thread on O.J.'s latest troubles - because of course I NEVER would have seen that news here on the Mainland.

That is not a fair comparison at all, LL. Your Seattle neighbor announces items she found in a newspaper as if none of us had read them, while my OJ thread asked for opinions about a news item that everyone clearly already knew about.
With all due respect, comparing the two is the proverbial 'apples and oranges.'

there are a LOT of non-residents who read these threads, and may not catch every story that's in the Advertiser or Star-Bulletin each day.

And of course if they're interested, they can either check the websites frequently or, better yet, sign up to receive e-mails of stories from them, in whatever category interests them.
But again, this is kind of 'apples and oranges,' as your Seattle neighbor mostly posts health or science "the sky is falling" news items as if we hadn't seen them here in Hawai`i.

It ain't about liking/hating you

And of course I really don't care who likes or hates me, other than my family. I love the saying that goes "What strangers think of me is none of my business."

Their failure to answer will serve to reflect on whether or not the validity of their information can be trusted.

Indeed. Her refusal to answer questions that challenge what she claims are facts merely serves to decimate her credibility and gives the impression that the person is afraid of my questions. Again, note the month-long absence after the SuperFerry WiFi fiasco noted last night, as an example.

Just as you don't want Miulang to present the information that she wishes to post,

That is incorrect. As far as I am concerned, she is more than welcome to post anything she wants... just as I am more than welcome to challenge any so-called 'facts' that she posts. I can only be faulted (and have been a couple of times, deservedly so, by a moderator) if and when I turn it into personal attacks that are off-topic.

Give me facts that counter hers, make it a respectful exchange of information, a fair debate

I do give facts (see both the WiFi and rental law items again, for example). But for there to be a fair debate, the other person has to be willing to answer the questions. Avoiding and ignoring those questions is tantamount to an admission of guilt, or fear of the questions themselves. That creates the lack of credibility.

nothing gets accomplished with you yelling "Answer My Questions!!!" at every step, and her saying "I'm ignoring you" right back.

Well, one thing does get accomplished: readers realize that someone may be clearly biased and/or posting false information.
Now. Let's end this and get back on-topic, shall we, please?

[Kenny]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

wow I didn't even know this thing existed. Is it already in use?

What is the typical cost of a roundtrip flight? I guess the main advantage of the ferry is that you get to bring your car and all the stuff you can carry, as it appears to be about $130+ per person, even before factoring in the car costs....

[1stwahine]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

wow I didn't even know this thing existed. Is it already in use?

What is the typical cost of a roundtrip flight? I guess the main advantage of the ferry is that you get to bring your car and all the stuff you can carry, as it appears to be about $130+ per person, even before factoring in the car costs....

Kenny, It is not in use. Eh....go read this thread from the start.

Auntie Lynn

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

OK 6,942 gallon fuel burn for HSF estimated for a load to Maui.

HSF claims a pax load of 866 so divide that by 64% to get an average load of 554 passengers.

6942/554= 12.54 gallons per person / per trip.

I heard a 717 burns about 2200 lbs or 314 gallons on a trip. A 717 holds 124 people with the same 64% load or 80 people = appx 4 gallons per person per trip.

717 wins!

You've missed out a very critical element in the comparison, the cargo. A 717 actually has a rather small cargo hold while the HSF actually has two full decks devoted to cargo. Infact, less space is devoted to passengers. So instead of simply dividing gallons of fuel consumed by number of passengers, I think a more accurate assessment would be amount of fuel consumed for a standard mile for a standard pound of cargo whether it be a person or object.

Airplanes have never been more fuel efficient than a ship when looked at X amt fuel for a mile for a pound of cargo. Otherwise, most of the state's goods would be flown in instead.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

(and I pray this will end it)...Now. Let's end this and get back on-topic, shall we, please?

It will & it does, for my part as well - thanks, LN.

[glossyp]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Here's a question that came up at lunch yesterday and we reached no definite conclusion: If the majority of residents on Oahu, Maui and Kauai support the HSF and want it to operate, why is there little to no outcry calling for allowing the boat to run? Why is there no "Free the Superferry" movement? We speculated that it might be due to the rather passive nature of local residents who are reluctant to step forward and draw attention. A corollary of this viewpoint is that the majority of anti-HSF types are transplants (using this word with some reservations, but you get the idea). Another thought was that many people who are pro-HSF are just resigned to things never changing for the betterment of the common man so why bother - essentially they feel helpless. What are your thoughts on why the majority is remaining silent?

[1stwahine]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Where do I sign up?

I'll go and hold my sign!

Auntie Lynn

[acousticlady]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Where do I sign up?

I'll go and hold my sign!

Auntie Lynn

Me too! Oh wait - I'm stuck in NY for the long cold winter and feeling very homesick - but I did sign up on the Friends of Hawaii Superferry that Mel linked earlier.

[waioli kai]

Re: Lingle's HSF Superfolly Stryker - Ch. 5

Here's a question that came up at lunch yesterday and we reached no definite conclusion: If the majority of residents on Oahu, Maui and Kauai support the HSF and want it to operate, why is there little to no outcry calling for allowing the boat to run? Why is there no "Free the Superferry" movement? We speculated that it might be due to the rather passive nature of local residents who are reluctant to step forward and draw attention. A corollary of this viewpoint is that the majority of anti-HSF types are transplants (using this word with some reservations, but you get the idea). Another thought was that many people who are pro-HSF are just resigned to things never changing for the betterment of the common man so why bother - essentially they feel helpless. What are your thoughts on why the majority is remaining silent?

Going from your "If the majority of residents on Oahu, Maui and Kauai support the HSF and want it to operate.." to your "... why the majority is remaining silent?" Why bother with prefacing with your " If " when thereafter you take your (and Garbaldi's and Lingle's) claim as a given fact? How much would a special session cost verses how much it would cost to get Maui and/or Kauai county election offices (where all the employees just waste away their time in between biennial elections) to conduct a vote on the issues? So what if a majority of Oahuans want the monster to operate to outer islands?...when a majority on an outer island do not want it dumping Oahuans and toys on their island that should be the end of the story for such operations to that island!

But then this is not a popular democracy, it's a corporatist demockery....it's a lie parading as a democracy; it's fascism with a candied coating, a poison pill served with a fairy tale.

[zztype]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Here's a question that came up at lunch yesterday and we reached no definite conclusion: If the majority of residents on Oahu, Maui and Kauai support the HSF and want it to operate, why is there little to no outcry calling for allowing the boat to run? Why is there no "Free the Superferry" movement? We speculated that it might be due to the rather passive nature of local residents who are reluctant to step forward and draw attention. A corollary of this viewpoint is that the majority of anti-HSF types are transplants (using this word with some reservations, but you get the idea). Another thought was that many people who are pro-HSF are just resigned to things never changing for the betterment of the common man so why bother - essentially they feel helpless. What are your thoughts on why the majority is remaining silent?

As someone else reminded me here on this very thread, "Don't feed the trolls."

They were correct. Trolls crave the attention. That's why they act so irrationally. They don't care about the facts. They don't want rational discussion. They just want their viewpoint to be heard, at any cost.

No matter what argument, no matter how correct or rational, the "other side" comes up with, it will NEVER placate the trolls. They will always come back with yet more of the same argument. They always feel that they are in the right and majority, everyone else be damned.

I'm not going to go down to the pier holding a sign to make a fool of myself in front of TV cameras.

I speak with my wallet. If I want to ride the ferry, I will buy a ticket. If you don't want to ride the ferry, don't. I won't make you.

I won't impede your right to exercise your free will. I would appreciate the opportunity to exercise my free will, as well.

To the trolls, I say get the hell out of my way. You don't speak for me. You don't speak for everyone. You speak for yourselves.

[glossyp]

Re: Lingle's HSF Superfolly Stryker - Ch. 5

Going from your "If the majority of residents on Oahu, Maui and Kauai support the HSF and want it to operate.." to your "... why the majority is remaining silent?" Why bother with prefacing with your " If " when thereafter you take your (and Garbaldi's and Lingle's) claim as a given fact?

The statement that a majority of residents support the HSF comes from the results of a survey done statewide by a local market research firm which showed that 4 out of 5 people surveyed supported the Superferry. I used "If" because I believe HSF paid for the study and that could make it suspect to some people. My personal conversations with people (and those of the friends I was talking with) are overwhelmingly in support of the Superferry. This includes people from all islands, not just Oahu. Nonetheless, it is not quantifiable.

How much would a special session cost verses how much it would cost to get Maui and/or Kauai county election offices (where all the employees just waste away their time in between biennial elections) to conduct a vote on the issues?

The results would certainly be interesting. If the majority voted in favor of the HSF, would the antis accept it or keep protesting...

[Miulang]

Re: Lingle's HSF Superfolly Stryker - Ch. 5

The results would certainly be interesting. If the majority voted in favor of the HSF, would the antis accept it or keep protesting...

The issue is so volatile now that holding a popular vote probably wouldn't accomplish anything (especially given the dismal turnout in most elections in Hawai'i). There are more people in favor of HSF on Oahu than on the Neighbor Islands, and by sheer numbers of Oahu residents compared to the residents of the Neighbor Islands, the pro-HSF people would win (but the Neighbor Islands would be more vocal about it).

Most Legislators don't want to convene a special session (especially the Neighbor Island Legislators). To do so would set a horrible precedent, as in, if there's another endangered State project on the line, would the Legislature be called into special session to bail that out, too? And lots of politicians are up for re-election this year, and having that special session would force them to take a stand, something which some of them don't want to do because of the volatile nature of the question.

Remember that the Senate passed a "compromise" bill last session that would have allowed HSF to operate while conducting an EIS, but the House (thank you, Uncle Joe Souki) sat on it and let it die. How ironic if a special session has to be called to resurrect that same bill and have it pass this time???

All the bickering in court that is going on now would have been prevented if Uncle Joe hadn't sat on that bill last session, because that would have allowed HSF to start operations as scheduled and there would be no question about having the State perform an EA.

The majority of the people "against" HSF are not against HSF per se, but questioning why, if there are laws on the books, HSF and DOT didn't conduct an EA in the first place. They also wonder why the State exempted the cruise lines, Matson and YB in the past from having to do EAs for harbor improvements some of the time and not other times, especially after passage of Chapter 343.

Miulang

[oceanpacific]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I have no doubt they'd keep protesting rather than acquiesce to the majority.

In reflecting over past issues, my daughter's friend has an activist mother who was always out there marching AGAINST this-and-that. Such as the H-3 freeway. Her mom would get her picketing shoes and signs, her dad would light up his pipe, sit in his rocker, and read the paper while his wife went out to "do her thing." And he waited patiently until he'd get the inevitable phone call late in the afternoon to come down and bail his wife out of the police cellblock.

In the meantime, their daughter took this all in stride: OH, OH! MOM'S BEEN ARRESTED ......... AGAIN!

An informal survey among my friends, classmates, family members, and clients has so far not uncovered even one person who opposes the Superferry. Nor anyone who believes that fire ants, criminals, or any of the other negative elements will "travel" to the neighbor (please, NOT "outer") islands on the Superferry only.

Me? I like the idea of an alternative means of travel and transporting items between the islands other than the airlines, air freight, and Young Brothers.