Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

[craig foo]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

After all of that, are you going to state your reason for opposition to the Superferry, aside from supporting the protestors or are you just a follower?

And, your remark here



demonstrates that you lack the capacity to be grateful, which IMHO should burden your soul more than the Superferry.

A follower of the protestors? How about just a protester, unaffiliated with any organization? Hard to believe, I suppose, but give it a try.

Grateful for what?

Add your phrases here:

Let' see, you write one sentence and two phrases and expect to elicit exactly how much of my effort to inform you of something?

[infinitypro]

There is absolutely zilch that can be good for Kauai resulting from Superferry commercial opertions to, from or around Kauai when all of the negative factors regarding Superferry operations in Kauai waters or harbors are taken into account

Still, you are not specific in your oppositions except that you

...agree to virtually every stated point in three hours of expressed nonstop opposition to the Superferry...enough to write a book about,...volumes...many more volumes...

Again, is it something as simple as 'boats' or are you just following?

A follower of the protestors? How about just a protester, unaffiliated with any organization? Hard to believe, I suppose, but give it a try.

Let' see, you write one sentence and two phrases and expect to elicit exactly how much of my effort to inform you of something?

Attempting to acquire your reasons for opposing the Superferry rather than just stating that you agree with the protestors.

It's a forum, HawaiiThreads where members discuss thread topics and engage each other for different ideas, opinions, advice, etc. Hard to believe, I suppose, but give it a try!

Grateful for what?

Exactly my point.

[craig foo]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Tell you what IP, for every point you can come up with concerning what you think the benefit Superferry is to Kauai I will try to match it with at least five negatives or counterpoints. If not just this moment then during the next few days.

Being a production of no specifics yourself, don't you feel the slightest bit hypocritical to be soliciting specifics from others?

[infinitypro]

Craig Foo, you've already answered my question. Thank you, and welcome to HT.

Being a production of no specifics yourself, don't you feel the slightest bit hypocritical to be soliciting specifics from others?

Absolutely not. And, it took me a few posts, however Craig Foo you feel the slightest bit like a troll. KWRECK!

[craig foo]

The day might come when these people will realize their irrational panic once again has left them with limited options when the ---- hits the fan.

For days after Iniki, roads were impassable, harbor and airport facilities were unusable but the weather was pleasant and predictable. We did not need any more bodies to shelter, feed , water and deal with hygiene and body wastes. My brother was one of the few emergency cases right after the hurricane and he was timely helicoptered to the hospital emergency facilities for an appendectomy. There was plenty of potable water and untold quantities of foodstuffs from stores and restaurants giving away their refridgerated foods for the first week. Mayor Yukimura and her team did an excellent job for Kauai in the months following Iniki.

There has been a series of natural threats and events that bring the people of Kauai together in common purpose. This Superferry business is a manmade threat that does that too.

Absolutely not. And, it took me a few posts, however Craig Foo you feel the slightest bit like a troll. KWRECK!

I found some interesting definions to try on for size:

[[ TROLL intransitive verb, online fool Internet user into responding: to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully designed incorrect statements ]]

Do you think I am sending carefully designed incorrect statements to lure you into a rhetorical ambush or something?

[[ TROLL mythological Scandinavian being: in Scandinavian legend, a supernatural being depicted as either a dwarf or giant and living in caves or under bridges ]]

Hmmm...supernatural dwarf or giant? I'll have to give that some thought, but if living in caves or under bridges is a pre-requisite then that's out.

[[TROLL, n. A person who sends messages to a Usenet newsgroup to incite emotions and cause controversy.]]

Just from what I've read in this Chapter 5 Hawaii Superferry over the past week I think that relative to more than a half dozen other writers in this thread I'm not likely to incite emotions and cause controversy to the degree others seem intent on doing, even as emotions and controversy quite often lead to footings from which generates meaningful and intelligent communications. Being a troll can't be all that evil if that is what you have in mind to make me appear when you attempt to impune my sincerity and integrity.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Lingle verses Maui and Kaua`i , Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 5

adulterated beyond sustainability

I ask again, is Kauai economically self-supporting, or is it being subsidized by the other islands? If it's being subsidized, then perhaps the other islands should have some say.

[helen]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I agree to virtually every stated point in three hours of expressed nonstop oppositon to the Superferry . It's enough to write a book about, and no doubt volumes of Enviromental Assessment papers and many more volumes of Enviromental Impact Study documents should it come to that.

I wasn't there at the meeting but am I to understand that the main issue against it is:

Having a service that transports people and cars between the islands?

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Build it and they will come....and keep coming...and keep coming...and keep coming...

And all that construction material will not come on the SuperFerry but on BARGES. Please itemize exactly what you and the anti-SF whiners have done to stop BARGES.

I linked to this site earlier this week
(...)
I read a previous message here that suggested there was 50-50 split pro and con at the latter meeting. Being that that was a distant observation I won't say that it is a false observation, though it remains very inaccurate of reality. It seems to be a sincere expression which correlates with that observer's previously expressed desires as regards Superferry serving Kauai and Maui to Oahu to appease Honolulu County residents' appetite for what little remains of Hawaii not fully Americanized to the point of barely palatable blandness.

The "previous message" you mention was mine. I'm glad you "won't say it is a false observation" since apparently my estimate was not false. You then immediately say that my estimate was "very inaccurate of reality." Your credibility died when you said you one thing and then said the exact opposite in the next sentence.
Your comment about me being "a distant observation" is ludicrous, but each of your succesive posts have given clearer indications that you are indeed a mere internet troll.
Ultimate proof of that is that you've only been on HT for a few days yet you describe me thusly:

It seems to be a sincere expression which correlates with that observer's previously expressed desires as regards Superferry serving Kauai and Maui to Oahu to appease Honolulu County residents' appetite for what little remains of Hawaii not fully Americanized to the point of barely palatable blandness.

How you could create such a blatantly incorrect fantasy about me after your just being here a few days lends ultimate credence to your Internet Trollness.
You might want to try your crap on UseNet, where you might actually find a gullible sucker or two.

[waioli kai]

Hawaii food chain , Re: Lingle verses Maui and Kaua`i

2007-09-23 Sunday, September 23, 2007 11:23:21 AM
: Hawaii food chain , Re: Lingle verses Maui and Kaua`i
.

=GeckoGeek== "I ask again, is Kauai economically self-supporting, or is it being subsidized by the other islands? If it's being subsidized, then perhaps the other islands should have some say. "

These are the questions you put to the thread and you got no response:

"Just out of mild curiosity, is Kauai distributing more welfare funds then they are getting in taxes? In other words, is the "Kauai Lifestyle" that they are working so hard to protect being paid for by welfare?"

As to your first question, welfare fund disbursements on Kauai verses tax receipts-- why not specify whose tax receipts you are talking about? You seem to suggest that that the County of Kauai disburses welfare funds from the taxes (and there is only property tax which the State allows to be collected by Kauai County) it collects and pays welfare from such funds. Isn't it a bit of a stretch in one question to infer that Kauai is inhabited by a bunch of lazy loser welfare cases, parasites of the State then in the next sentence state that " [FONT="Palatino Linotype"]they are working so hard[/FONT] " to remain in that condition ?

You answered your initial poorly composed and presented, yet initially successful deceit, with the hostility embedded in your second question, just as HSF, Inc asks "Why not ? and then follows that question with a very real, seemingly unchallegable threat, to manifest reality on anyone any second one might be, seem to be, be deemed to be, by suspicion, factual or accident, "not fully appreciative of'" that power through which, by crude or coercive means,
is applied "the norm".

It's getting old coming on this thread to hostility spewing off of Oahu toward the inhabitants of Oahu's "neighbor islands" . Such neighbors are experiencing being on the food end of a modern version of the cannabalistic drive and they are are having their governor tell them to accept the fact that they are not exactly at the very top of the food pyramid.

[waioli kai]

bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

...2007-09-23 Sunday, September 23, 2007 12:35:11pm , bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain ,

I wasn't there at the meeting but am I to understand that the main issue against it is:

Having a service that transports people and cars between the islands?

I wasn't there either, but it's not just the transport of the people and the cars. It's those cars and people and their possessions, plans for accomodations, intentions of visit, intended destination, departure time, driving attitudes, vehicular nuisance and hazardousness when they emerge onto Kaua'i's landscape. It's security, or rather the certainty of increased insecurity once the flood gate is breached through an ill conceived and poorly-to-unfunded security system, allowing that the security "system" has any relevance toward averting a nightmarish, nightmarish to Kauai inhabitants, reality that Superferry is inadvertently (let's hope) threatening to unfold upon Kauai citizens, with no exemptions.

It is so hard for you of Oahu to identify with just what it is Kauai and Maui residents are experiencing maybe because your urbaness is a result of your never having significantly experienced much else but an urban, vehicular culture existence. Whatever it is, it has entered a new frightening stage of psychosUS. Not to mean you Helen,,,, quite the contrary. Not to include you, Leo, Miulang, and watanabe usually, and maybe foo if he ever comes back to this guillotine room manned predominantly by bigoted animosity toward diversity.

[infinitypro]

Re: bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

...2007-09-23 Sunday, September 23, 2007 12:23:11pm , bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain ,


I wasn't there either, but it's not just the transport of the people and the cars. It's those cars and people and their possessions, plans for accomodations, intentions of visit, intended destination, departure time, driving attitudes, vehicular nuisance and hazardousness when they emerge onto Kaua'i's landscape. It's security, or rather the certainty of increased insecurity once the flood gate is breached through an ill conceived and poorly-to-unfunded security system, allowing that the security "system" has any relevance toward averting a nightmarish, nightmarish to Kauai inhabitants, reality that will increasingly unfold on Kauai citizens, with no exemptions.

It is so hard for you of Oahu to identify with just what it is Kauai and Maui residents are experiencing maybe because your urbaness is a result of your never having significantly experienced much else but an urban, vehicular culture existence. Whatever it is, it has entered a new frightening stage of psychosUS. Not to mean you Helen,,,, quite the contrary. You, Leo, Miulang, and watanabe usually, and maybe foo if he ever comes back to this guillotine room manned predominantly by bigoted animosity toward diversity.

It is not hard for this current Oahu resident, previous resident of the Big Island and Kauai, soon to be resident of Maui (again) to understand the experiences of the current residents of Kauai and Maui. Rather, I'd like a better understanding of the passionate objection to the Superferry which seems to have manifested into an attack on Oahu residents.

Oahu residents seeking to utilize the Supeferry are being generalized and accused of intending to deplete the supply of opihi, transport illegal drugs, drive recklessly, become homeless on beaches, transport fire ants; all of which I believe already exists on the neighbor islands, with the exception of the fire ants, not sure if they're on the other islands and I've never seen them here on Oahu.

In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry? Majority of those in favor of the Superferry on this board only want an additional option to travel for the same purposes as if they were to fly.

[Miulang]

Re: bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

Oahu residents seeking to utilize the Supeferry are being generalized and accused of intending to deplete the supply of opihi, transport illegal drugs, drive recklessly, become homeless on beaches, transport fire ants; all of which I believe already exists on the neighbor islands, with the exception of the fire ants, not sure if they're on the other islands and I've never seen them here on Oahu.

In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry? Majority of those in favor of the Superferry on this board only want an additional option to travel for the same purposes as if they were to fly.

The whole HSF issue is not about ohana visiting their relatives on Kaua'i or Maui. It may not even be completely about them bringing their cars, at least not once the cars enter the main flow of traffic. More than likely it's about the areas immediately adjacent to the harbors and the addition of 200 cars in the small window of an hour. If the 200 cars were spaced out evenly throughout the day, do you think the residents of Maui or Kaua'i would even notice a difference in the traffic volumes? No. On the flip side, how long would someone who had already spent 3 hours on a rocking boat be willing to wait in line to get out of the dock area and get on their way? 10 minutes? 15 minutes? a half hour?

In Kahului, where the cars aboard the ferry enter Kaahumanu also happens to be next to a very large and busy bank branch. There is a popular restaurant located a few yards away with a parking lot that faces the traffic flow that would be impacted at lunch time and probably lose business due to the conflict between ferry traffic and customer traffic. There are issues with traffic (rental cars) from the cruise ship passengers because the port of call in Kahului is 2 days, and there are cruise ships in port every day except Sunday (at least until Pride of Hawai'i leaves for Europe). When I was a small kid, I used to fish for papio off the pier that HSF now uses. The best canoe club in the State cannot use the inner harbor when HSF docks.

On Nawiliwili Harbor, the expanded Coast Guard security zone will keep people from getting to a food bank and a couple of other businesses. The jetty is used by residents for fishing and can't be accessed so long as the CG enforces its security zone. Surfers, kayakers, canoers and swimmers can't use the harbor while HSF is in port. There are already access issues caused by the passengers on the cruise liners who rent cars while the ships are in port.

The Advertiser this morning probably summarized the whole situation the most accurately: perhaps the residents of the State have reached a "tipping point".

Planners and developers in Hawai'i sometimes talk about a "tipping point," where pressure builds until unexpected and rapid change happens.

The controversy over the Hawaii Superferry may be a sign the state is teetering at such a point, a time when significant numbers of people here feel they can't escape the effects of more tourists and residents, more cars, houses and hotels.

When the Kaua'i protesters and a Maui court ruling stalled the Superferry, the anger that boiled up statewide on both sides of the issue showed the dispute was about much more than an undone environmental report for a water-borne interisland shuttle

One only needs to read the monthly stats from the HDEBT on visitor arrivals by plane to see why the anger is mounting on the Neighbor Islands.

To Oahu residents, who already are subjected to constant congestion on H1 and H3, another 200 cars doesn't make a difference. But to the Neighbor Island resident who doesn't have an H1, 200 additional cars in a compressed time frame (like an hour) on top of what they already experience while trying to get through the 1-stoplight-at-every-block stretch of Kaahumanu Ave. that fronts Kahului Harbor might very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back. If the 200 cars coming off HSF came through in a steady stream throughout the day, their impact wouldn't be as great.

I've been monitoring the comments on the Advertiser forums regarding this issue and it really is painful to see the insults hurled from both sides of the issue. The most painful of all, though, are the ones coming from Oahu folks who threaten Kauaians that if another Iniki should hit, forget about getting any help from Honolulu. This is really stupid talk. It implies that the Neighbor Islands have absolutely no resources of their own to recover from a disaster. This is so far from the truth that it's painful. On the Neighbor Islands (not so much these days on Maui because of the large numbers of malihini moving in), everybody knows everybody else and their business. If someone's in trouble, everybody on the island kokuas. Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives. I'm not saying that that's wrong, but I am saying that it's wrong to think that the way you think is the way everyone else should think.

Through some rather fortuitous timing, the State this past weekend released a report on Sustainability in Hawai'i 2050. Take a look at the results. Then decide if bickering over an alternate form of transportation is more important than trying to figure out how you can keep your kids from moving out of state because they feel they can't survive in Hawai'i, or how the State will be able to retain the magic that draws so many tourists every day of the year and whose bucks, along with those from the military, help drive the State's economy, or how to keep most of Waikiki from sinking into the ocean.

HSF as a tipping point? I think so.

BTW: Maui doesn't have fire ants, but apparently some guys love the pohaku rocks from Maui. Wonder how much they could have gotten from somebody who wanted to build a rock wall on Oahu? Miconia infestations are more prevalent on Maui and Kaua'i. Oahu has verroa mites which could devastate one of the last pristine colonies of honeybees in the world which are located in apiaries on the Big Island.

Miulang

[kamuelakea]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Okay, and in fear of sounding like TimKona, if these people are truly concerned about the crowds, the invasive species, the pollution,etc etc, why don't they all be leaders and pick up and leave Hawaii. Make it public and make a statement that you are so concerned about the environment that you are going to take your footprint out of the equation.

This is not a "U no like it, go back mainlan" line. This is a put your money where your mouth is and do the best thing one could do to decrease traffic, pollution etc. Leave.

Seriously.

But how many of those protestors are honest and committed enough to do that?

And why are Haoles, the people who invented the democratic system, so often the loudest and the rudest people in democratic town meetings?

None? Probably.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

There was plenty of potable water and untold quantities of foodstuffs from stores and restaurants giving away their refridgerated foods for the first week. Mayor Yukimura and her team did an excellent job for Kauai in the months following Iniki.

I was in Kauai when Iniki hit and directly observed what was going on in those first few days. It was a mess. Communication was minimal. None of the helicopters on the island were operable since the hangars they were housed in were damaged, and thus the aircraft weren't airworthy. The only ones to make it were the ones that were sent to Oahu, out of the way of the storm.

Yet Yukimura told the commander of a flight of Nat'l Guard choppers to go home. They could have provided immediate overflights to assess damage and find people, such as your brother, who needed to be medivac'd right away.

Of course food wasn't a problem and there was a lot of that kind of help going around. But potable water was a serious problem. Without water you don't have flushable toilets and proper sanitation.

Maybe there was water where you were but most of the communities in Kauai had no water. All the lines were down and there was no power to run the pumps. The Army was going to bring generators that would have provided sufficient power to run the pumps but the Mayor and others prevented them from doing so at first -- they were under the mistaken impression that relief crews would take up more of the limited resources on the island. Which was absolutely ridiculous. The relief teams were bringing IN more resources.

I got this directly from the commander in charge of bringing in the equipment off the ship as military personnel was driving the trucks onto the dock.

People on the neighbor islands did what they could to send help to Kauai. It's what neighbors do. Maybe it's been too many years and a lot of people on Kauai forgot all that.

No one in their right mind would go to a hurricane-ravaged town and expect to stay there unless they were there to help. And they wouldn't go there unprepared without their own supplies unless they were immensely stupid. To assert that relief workers would use up limited resources is just wrong.

As for Yukimura handling the crisis: she didn't delegate enough of the responsibilities for disaster relief and held up too much of the process. That's why she failed to win the following election.

Here's a refreshing observation: Some shops were badly damaged and one warehouse had stacks of juice cans spilled out onto the adjacent sidewalk. NO ONE touched any of it. No looting was going on anywhere in Lihue and I heard of only one incident of price gouging in one outlying community. Rental cars were being abandoned at the airport. People would take the abandoned rentals when their own cars ran out of gas, but were courteous enough to return them afterward. It was like a scaled-up version of "take a penny, leave a penny". :-)

[Composite 2992]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

BTW, why hasn't anyone in Kauai or Maui protested against any of the cruise ships that arrive at their ports every week? They're a lot larger than the Superferry and carry a lot more people, too.