Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

[infinitypro]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Miulang:

You have a lot to say when the question wasn't even directed to you or one of your posts, however I do understand the rules of posting in a forum, anyone can reply to post their opinions.

You stated:

[quote:]The whole HSF issue is not about ohana visiting their relatives on Kaua'i or Maui. It may not even be completely about them bringing their cars, at least not once the cars enter the main flow of traffic. More than likely it's about the areas immediately adjacent to the harbors and the addition of 200 cars in the small window of an hour.[/quote]

Is it about the cars or not? Without the cars, there would be no vehicle traffic on the roads.

Based on the oppositions' statements it does include resentment against the transport of cars, as well as generalized accusations that residents of Oahu will also transport drugs, create homelessness, deplete opihi; all of which already exists.

I do understand your posts, despite the oppositions you encounter here, but when I read your statement here:

[quote:] Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives.[/quote]

Well, it only validates the irritation others have towards your irresponsible generalizations.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

BTW, why hasn't anyone in Kauai or Maui protested against any of the cruise ships that arrive at their ports every week? They're a lot larger than the Superferry and carry a lot more people, too.

When NCL first started service on Maui, people did protest...not for environmental reasons at the time but because of the congestion it created at Kahului Harbor. Maui Tomorrow has been on NCL's case ever since then.

Gov. Lingle, during the Q&A session on Kaua'i said something that most people may not have heard: when asked why Matson, NCL and YB were exempted from the kind of environmental scrutiny that HSF has been under, said that that scenario will probably have to change. Now whether she and the DOT actually do do something about it is another story. But if you go watch the community meeting, I think you'll hear that response (was kind of toward the end of the meeting, if I remember correctly).

As far as the cruise lines are concerned, the DOT and Visitors Bureau , working with HDEBT and the DNLR, want to conduct a survey on the impact of the cruise lines on Hawai'i.

the Legislature allocated $600,000 from the state Transportation Department budget, and will share costs with the Hawai'i Tourism Authority but it's not clear yet how much the bids will be.

One major component included in the study will be a cost-benefit analysis relating to economic welfare, physical environment, historical and cultural assets and practices, social welfare, harbor facilities, safety and security measures, environment and infrastructure, tax revenue and fees, and traffic, Johnson said.

He said the harbors may need more work to make the transition from working harbor to hosting cruise ships statewide.

Johnson said the proposal deadline is Aug. 3 with the state's intention to award the contract in September and order its completion by October 2008.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Is it about the cars or not? Without the cars, there would be no vehicle traffic on the roads.

It really isn't about the cars per se because there have to be at least 200 rentals being driven out of the OGG area on a daily basis too, but they don't all enter and leave from the exact same place (i.e., there's more than one rental agency, and they're scattered around but outside the immediate airport vicinity). With HSF, there's only one way in/out. If the cops only allow 3 cars out of there for each cycle of stoplight on the main arterial (Kaahumanu) as they were directed to by the last court order, some folks with cars aboard HSF are gonna be waiting a long time before they get to leave the dock area.


[quote:] Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives.[/quote]

It's what happens in any large city where there are lots of newcomers, IP, not just Honolulu. Why do people complain about having so much trouble connecting with others in a city? It's not because everyone knows everyone else, is it?

Miulang

[infinitypro]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

It really isn't about the cars per se because there have to be at least 200 rentals being driven out of the OGG area on a daily basis too, but they don't all enter and leave from the exact same place (i.e., there's more than one rental agency, and they're scattered around but outside the immediate airport vicinity). With HSF, there's only one way in/out. If the cops only allow 3 cars out of there for each cycle of stoplight on the main arterial (Kaahumanu) as they were directed to by the last court order, some folks with cars aboard HSF are gonna be waiting a long time before they get to leave the dock area.


[quote:] Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives.

It's what happens in any large city where there are lots of newcomers, IP, not just Honolulu. Why do people complain about having so much trouble connecting with others in a city? It's not because everyone knows everyone else, is it?

Miulang[/quote]

Miulang,

Perhaps it's that type of attitude that permeates amongst the complainers. Please don't mistake my statement for naivete, it's not. I moved from Hawaii to Houston with nothing more than determination, and one common face, who only arrived a week before I did. I didn't have a problem at all connecting with others in the Greater Houston area which was quite diverse. My success, I believe was based on my attitude, openmindedness, and acceptance.

Do you find this difficulty that you speak of in the city that you reside?

[Miulang]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Miulang,

Perhaps it's that type of attitude that permeates amongst the complainers. Please don't mistake my statement for naivete, it's not. I moved from Hawaii to Houston with nothing more than determination, and one common face, who only arrived a week before I did. I didn't have a problem at all connecting with others in the Greater Houston area which was quite diverse. My success, I believe was based on my attitude, openmindedness, and acceptance.

Do you find this difficulty that you speak of in the city that you reside?

Not for myself personally, no. When I first went to college in Ohio, I was the only one of two kids from Hawai'i (very small school, and I didn't meet her until the day we showed up on campus), but I managed to make friends.

When I moved to Boston after graduation to work, I didn't know a single soul there, but I managed to make friends and lived there for 10 years. When I moved to Seattle (and I drove cross country by myself), I only had a cousin (who then moved back to Hawai'i within 2 months of my arrival) so I had to reach out and meet new people. But like you said, it takes determination and respect for others and a willingness to be open to new people and ideas in order to accomplish that. Most people nowadays feel intimidated about approaching total strangers and striking up conversations, though, and their social circle mostly revolves around the people they meet at work, not their neighbors. In large cities, people tend to want to be anonymous.

When you move to a small community as a newcomer (as opposed to a returning resident), you get the opposite reaction many times: suspicion and slow acceptance because everybody knows everybody else and their business, and their friends tend to be people from their neighborhood who they've known since childhood (or at least from high school. A common expression in Hawai'i is: "Where you wen grad?" ).

Miulang

[infinitypro]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

Not for myself personally, no. When I first went to college in Ohio, I was the only one of two kids from Hawai'i (very small school, and I didn't meet her until the day we showed up on campus), but I managed to make friends.

When I moved to Boston after graduation to work, I didn't know a single soul there, but I managed to make friends and lived there for 10 years. When I moved to Seattle (and I drove cross country by myself), I only had a cousin (who then moved back to Hawai'i within 2 months of my arrival) so I had to reach out and meet new people. But like you said, it takes determination and respect for others and a willingness to be open to new people and ideas in order to accomplish that. Most people nowadays feel intimidated about approaching total strangers and striking up conversations, though, and their social circle mostly revolves around the people they meet at work, not their neighbors. In large cities, people tend to want to be anonymous.

When you move to a small community as a newcomer (as opposed to a returning resident), you get the opposite reaction many times: suspicion and slow acceptance because everybody knows everybody else and their business, and their friends tend to be people from their neighborhood who they've known since childhood (or at least from high school. A common expression in Hawai'i is: "Where you wen grad?" ).

Miulang

How concentrated is your circle that you make these generalizations?

In order to have a social circle, you have to begin with approaching strangers and striking up conversations even if your initial exchange involves your alma mater. And, friendships are formed as convenience whether from work, organizations and/or proximity which may include neighbors.

Your statement, when taken in context insults the large number of full-time parents whose work is centralized in their home.

People tend to want to be anonymous because of their personalities, their experiences, their choices, not because they live in big cities. Familiarity is what people crave regardless of location.

[waioli kai]

turning the table on Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

.

turning the table on Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

.

== "In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry?"==

A good intention would be revealed through an accurate, verifiable means to pay for a pre-determined timetable of visitation...a beginning and an end that does not necessitate more personal possessions of the visitor than what is now permitted visitors to Maui or Kauai brought on commercial passenger aircraft.

== "Majority of those in favor of the Superferry on this board only want an additional option to travel for the same purposes as if they were to fly."==

Many of anti-Superferry persuasion are not against some kind of waterborne transit it is just that Superferry is a monster, not just a ferry for human passengers. Try think of it this way:
if such a superferry were proposed to connect Oahu to Los Angeles and it could require a four hour transit and the price for one-way transit got reduced to $5, how would L.A. folks feel about such a ferry? how much would L.A. folks care about what Oahuan's thought about its superferry? So maybe as Oahuans savor their cannabalization of their neighbors they should keep an eye over their shoulder for that known or unknown which is lusting for them, their way of life and relative security.

== " In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry? " ==

After arriving on a commercial superferry for "a visit" to an outer island there can be no statement which a visitor could make about "good intentions" that could be credible in light of how much unabatable opposition there is to HSF, Inc's monster ferry.

Advice: Fly off of Oahu, until a more acceptable waterborne transit exists. Visit, spend money, don't drink and drive; rent a car or preferably take a shuttle; don't bring too much; don't sleep, camp or party in the parks; get a hotel room, stay there at night/stay off the road; don't drive where only locals, should be driving, if anyone at all. don't bring pets, drugs, guns, stolen goods, prostitution, don't pick maile, harvest fish, lobster, squid, kalo or anything whatsoever; don't wander the roadways; just come with what you can carry away from the turnstills; and then leave with little more than good memories on a reserved return flight. What's expected of visitors by neighbor islanders? The same thing Oahuans want of their visitors.

==" I'd like a better understanding of the passionate objection to the Superferry which seems to have manifested into an attack on Oahu residents. "==

An attack on Oahu residents? Pardon me, call it what it is: defense. Superferry is a most unwelcome visitor to neighbor islands. HSF, Inc/Lingle is attacking Oahu's neighbors and Oahuans seem near unanimoUSly gleeful about the invasion. Again: who is attacking whom? Who is cheering whom?

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

It may not even be (...)
More than likely it's about (...)
hour. If the 200 cars were (...)
the traffic flow that would be impacted at lunch time and probably lose business (...)
this morning probably summarized (...)
perhaps the residents (...)
Harbor might very well be the (...)
back. If the 200 cars (...)

May... more than likely... if... probably... probably... perhaps... might.... if... SHEESH. The Seattle resident has nothing but guesses and suppositions. As usual.

The most painful of all, though, are the ones coming from Oahu folks who threaten Kauaians

No, you're wrong yet again. THE most painful was watching Kauaians threaten and scream obscenities at people with their children... watching Kauaians vandalizing peoples vehicles... and watching Kauaians scream at each other. Apparently you didn't see all that on the news there in Seattle.

This is really stupid talk.

No, the ultimate in stupid talk is coming up momentarily.

Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives.

And there it is, the "really stupid talk" that proves without any doubt that you and your arrogant holier-than-thou should STAY THE HELL IN SEATTLE.

I'm not saying that that's wrong,

That figures.

but I am saying that it's wrong to think that the way you think is the way everyone else should think.

Funny, that's exactly what almost every single post of yours DOES reflect!!!

Miulang: I read your statement here:

Can the residents of Honolulu trust that their neighbors will help them if they need assistance? My guess is no; they can hope, but many will let others help because they're too busy with their own lives.

Well, it only validates the irritation others have towards your irresponsible generalizations.

AMEN.

[infinitypro]

Re: turning the table on Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

.

turning the table on Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

.

== "In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry?"==

A good intention would be revealed through an accurate, verifiable means to pay for a pre-determined timetable of visitation...a beginning and an end that does not necessitate more personal possessions of the visitor than what is now permitted visitors to Maui or Kauai brought on commercial passenger aircraft.

== "Majority of those in favor of the Superferry on this board only want an additional option to travel for the same purposes as if they were to fly."==

Many of anti-Superferry persuasion are not against some kind of waterborne transit it is just that Superferry is a monster, not just a ferry for human passengers. Try think of it this way:
if such a superferry were proposed to connect Oahu to Los Angeles and it could require a four hour transit and the price for one-way transit got reduced to $5, how would L.A. folks feel about such a ferry? how much would L.A. folks care about what Oahuan's thought about its superferry? So maybe as Oahuans savor their cannabalization of their neighbors they should keep an eye over their shoulder for that known or unknown which is lusting for them, their way of life and relative security.

== " In your opinion, what is a good intention for a visit since you site that as one of your reasons for opposing the Superferry? " ==

After arriving on a commercial superferry for "a visit" to an outer island there can be no statement which a visitor could make about "good intentions" that could be credible in light of how much unabatable opposition there is to HSF, Inc's monster ferry.

Advice: Fly off of Oahu, until a more acceptable waterborne transit exists. Visit, spend money, don't drink and drive; rent a car or preferably take a shuttle; don't bring too much; don't sleep, camp or party in the parks; get a hotel room, stay there at night/stay off the road; don't drive where only locals, should be driving, if anyone at all. don't bring pets, drugs, guns, stolen goods, prostitution, don't pick maile, harvest fish, lobster, squid, kalo or anything whatsoever; don't wander the roadways; just come with what you can carry away from the turnstills; and then leave with little more than good memories on a reserved return flight. What's expected of visitors by neighbor islanders? The same thing Oahuans want of their visitors.

Took a bit of deciphering but basically you're providing a mandatory itinerary of hotel accomodations, rental car, and transit routes not designated for "locals". Thank you for answering, seriously.

[waioli kai]

reRe: turning the table on Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

Took a bit of deciphering but basically you're providing a mandatory itinerary of hotel accomodations, rental car, and transit routes not designated for "locals".

That's an accurate summary. In other words, nothing different from what the residents' culture somewhat accomodates at the moment, with increasingly less trust and patience.

[Keanu]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

This Advertiser article sums up the issue quite well....

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS09/709230361

Fwiw, although I am a lifelong Oahu resident, I support those on Kaui and Maui who seek to keep their Islands from being a suburb of Oahu.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii food chain , Re: Lingle verses Maui and Kaua`i

It's getting old coming on this thread to hostility spewing off of Oahu toward the inhabitants of Oahu's "neighbor islands" .

In the case of Kauai, consider it hostility returned thanks to the no-class protesters.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch in one question to infer that Kauai is inhabited by a bunch of lazy loser welfare cases, parasites of the State then in the next sentence state that " they are working so hard " to remain in that condition ?

I am asking if that's the case. Is the contrast of lazy welfare/hard working protester a stretch? No, not at all. There are other areas that are like that. What I'm wondering is IF Kauai falls into that category. I'm not likely to indulge them if their lifestyle is on my dime. If they are completely economically self-sufficient, then that's a different story.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

I read that Advertiser article as well. Although not quite my hypothesis about the car/ego thing, it did have a lot to indicate the differences between those from Oahu visiting the "Neighbor Islands" as opposed to those visiting Oahu.

The Honolululization fear was what I observed here on the Big Island. When I first decided to live here in Keaau I felt the sting of that paranoia from those who were born and raised here (the Big Island) about my bringing my BIG Honolulu ways to this sleepy town of Hilo.

I thought it was just simple jealousy that I saw more than they did. But I soon realized as I integrated with the slower pace of Puna living that when I had to work with customers from Oahu I would become offended when I heard that all too familiar remark, "Well I'm from Honolulu and we have this and do it that way..." Oh man I realized I did the same thing when I first came here and now I realized how offensive those remarks were to the "locals" here on the Big Island.

That, "I'm from Honolulu" remark was worse than scratching a chalkboard to my ears. And it wasn't even the words but the condescending tone of it all, as if they were saying, "I'm from Honolulu and you're not", like that's supposed to make me feel appreciative of them? Oh my, a God is in my presence I had better bow down and kiss his knuckles. Hey wait a minute, I was from Honolulu too.

When I lived in Honolulu I'd feel the same way when someone from New York City would tell me things that made Oahu so backwoods, "well on the Mainland we do it this way..." Yeah right well this is Hawaii where we don't okay buddy?

These condescending remarks was enough to really frustrate anyone who had to be on the receiving end. Maybe on Oahu things are expected or done a certain way, but that's Oahu. The neighbor islands do it differently and want to keep it that way, that's what makes the neighbor islands different and wanting to visit than Oahu. It's their identity that makes each island unique.

If you want the fast pace "get it now" feeling then Oahu is the place to go. If you want something else, that's what the neighbor islands are for.

The fear or paranoia is what's driving the protesting. Whether it's valid or not, you don't attack each other with fear mongering (and that goes for both sides including the protesters), you work it out thru dialog and come out to some workable solution.

HSF has tried to address those concerns but that wasn't enough to satisfy those extremists (and probably never will). But after what has happened to Kauai and Maui with rising housing prices, the uniqueness of those islands are fast eroding. Kauai used to be a real rural place but not anymore, Maui was a great place to visit but it's more congested than Oahu. Kona is feeling it as well. Is it no wonder residents there are screaming enough is enough?

My goodness even those living in Kapolei are screaming for controlled growth as the H1 cannot handle the traffic anymore without long delays.

HSF I do believe was the straw that broke the camel's back. The car itself was the culprit to me because of the ego thing, but now I see it as more of an infrastracture thing. 200 cars transported rather than locally rented is 200more than the island had. At least if all 200 cars on Kauai were rented that's it. It's the same 200 today as it will be tomorrow. But the HSF represents 200 MORE cars per day.

To Oahu that may not seem like a lot but on the rural roads of the neighbor islands you take out every other car equating to 200 automobiles...that's a lot of space on them single roads. In Hilo four lanes is a major roadway. On Oahu it's a typical city street. On Kauai...oh man are there any four lane roadways there?

Honolulu traffic cams tell the world how bad traffic is during the morning and afternoon commutes. A picture tells a thousand words can you imagine a live streaming web cam? It fuels the paranoia and for those who never been to Oahu it's a scary one to see that many cars stuck and going nowhere. And that vision is what they're imagining is coming to their islands via the HSF?

Unfounded? Of course it is! But that's the fear nonetheless. It's like being a parachutist and telling the first time jumper that it's fine, just jump and pull the rip cord. Yeah right easy for you to say you've done it a million times.

But for those who have never experienced Oahu, Los Angeles, New York or even faster...it's something they're not accustomed to and now it's coming whether they're ready for it or not. Fight or Flight is a humanistic reaction when having to deal with the unknown. And for neighbor islanders, they will not run away from their homes when this unknown comes into their harbor. They will instinctively fight. And they have.

For those who were born and raised on the neighbor islands and have moved to Oahu, you've seen how unfounded those fears are because you've embraced what was feared by others. But there are those who can't let go of those fears...and then there are those extremists who will (as Timkona eloquently says) denounce progress in the name of the politics of "no".

You can't change the minds of extremists but you can come to some compromise to those fearful, thru open and constructive dialog.

If HSF really wants to build strong bonds, I really think they should've done the inagural trip from Kauai to Maui or Kauai to Oahu for that matter. That little first trip I believe would have made all the difference because it would have given the neighbor islands the chance to be the ones to host.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: bigoted animosity toward diversity re: Oahu/U.S. fascUSts, HI demockratic food chain

On Nawiliwili Harbor, the expanded Coast Guard security zone will keep people from getting to a food bank and a couple of other businesses. The jetty is used by residents for fishing and can't be accessed so long as the CG enforces its security zone. Surfers, kayakers, canoers and swimmers can't use the harbor while HSF is in port.

Be sure to thank the protesters the next time you talk to them. The CG is just responding to what's happened.

Oahu folks who threaten Kauaians that if another Iniki should hit, forget about getting any help from Honolulu. This is really stupid talk. It implies that the Neighbor Islands have absolutely no resources of their own to recover from a disaster. This is so far from the truth that it's painful.

This statement is so wrong as to be painful. Kauai doesn't have the resources to live day-to-day without barge loads of material from Honolulu. Kauai received a lot of help after Iniki. Nothing unusual about that. Anytime any place gets hit the affected area need help. Water, tarps, repair material. You name it. No, Kauai will need a lot of help when the next one hits. Not unless they decide to enjoy the stone age.

BTW, Oahu shouldn't count on their neighbors to help them out when they get hit. Oahu is too big and the neighbors are too small (and dependent on Oahu for their supplies which means the neighbors would have their own problems.)

[Mike_Lowery]

LOL @ all the comments saying that Kauai cannot survive w/o the Super Ferry. I've lived here for 26 of my 27 years (21 of 27 if you count college), and we've never come close to running out of any "essential" supplies. I'm sure that we can go another 26+ years. On the real, exactly how much cargo was the Super Ferry gonna be bringing over anyway? I can't imagine it bringing a critical mass of freight that it would put a dent in shipping prices, or make it a significant competitor against Young Brothers, Hawaiian, Aloha, and anyone else that brings passengers and cargo en masse.

Surely there is nothing illegal about HSF executives making contributions to Souki's, Say's, and Lingle's campaigns, but you see the connections. I don't think it's any different than the US selling weapons to Iran.

And I think that most of Hawaii's who is laughing at Kauai's protesters don't get our point--we're not completely opposed to the Super Ferry. We're just asking Linda to obey laws and get an EIS done.

Be sure to thank the protesters the next time you talk to them. The CG is just responding to what's happened.

and their response is martial law?

I think the arguments of traffic, whales, etc, are simply a cover for a reason most don't want to admit. Simply put, there's prejudice going on, island racism. Some, not all, think their island is better than others and find it unacceptable to have the "low lives" from other islands, mainly Oahu, come over so easily. There, I said it.

No. If so, protesters would be blocking those $1-$9 flights from leaving/coming.