Bringing in Drug Dogs

[Kalalau]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

I don't like the idea of drug dogs at all. English common law says you are innocent until you are proven guilty. That means that without probable cause to think you are actually doing something wrong, Big Government does not have any right to investigate you. That means no dogs. How far do you want to take this presumption of GUILT? Do you want Big Government drawing your kids' blood for testing? Make em pee in a cup in front of witnesses? Inspect your childrens' most private body orifices? And unless you would put up with this kind of intrusion against yourself for no good reason at all, don't think its OK to force it on a child who also happens to be a citizen of this country which claims English common law and its presumption of innocence as the basis of the relationship of Big Government and its subjects, excuse me, citizens. Neither you nor your children are vessels of the State to probe any time some high handed bureaucrat gets a notion. Nobody should be at all eager to give up ANY rights to Big Government. Now or ever. Just my opinion.

[kaneohegirl]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

English common law says you are innocent until you are proven guilty. That means that without probable cause to think you are actually doing something wrong

ahhhh but they do have probable cause.... the schools have been a front ground for selling drugs for a long time. IT is private property. the schools have the right to protect themselves and their students.

so where you dont want anyone at least trying to stop the sell of drugs your son or daughter have now just scored some Ice or X hey for the jocks out there some Rupies or weed that has been laced with PCP or Herion. and now has either OD'd or has gotten into a motor vehicle accident is in critical condition or the person they were parting with is... oh hey how about that X or rupies an now your going to the hospital to get your daughter from the ER because she was Raped...

so now tell me if some drug dogs on campus might have stopped any of those things from happening to your kid would you be happy you stopped the campus from having the dogs or would you be blaming yourself because it might have been prevented.

yes kids can get drugs places besides school but SCHOOLS are where a good percentage of kids get their stuff

[Kalalau]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

All I can tell you is that trading away the presumption of innocence for whatever (meaningless, trivial, temporary) advantage it gives the War On Drugs is the worst bargain you could ever make. Benjamin Franklin had some quote that those who think they can trade their freedom for security end up neither free nor secure. Amen to that!

[Stephen]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

Holy Moly, I'm about to sound off and hopefully pee off a few peeps.

Timkona - The War on Drugs is a farce? Interesting thought. Horribly misguided. Would you rather have your children have free access to drugs (if no kids, or niece/nephew, think nieghbor kid)????

My answer to the two questions is. . . . . .no and no. . . but I'm also not a teenager in school riddled with a ridiculous amount of peer pressure to try this and try that. "Um, hey, Beavis, if you take this ecstasy stuff, Karen will sleep with you." Believe what you would like to, but teenaged (and pre-teens) are going to do a lot of stupid stuff just because their friends do it.

I do have to give you props though on your conviction - however I can't quite buy into support for the war on drugs as a direct indicator of ignorance.

Alohabear (and Craig) - I have to admit that you have the best name ever (bear.) But Babyboomers didn't make MTV. Babyboomers fought the bejesus out of MTV. MTV is Gen X's first establishment of generational identity. I am not sure, but I am pretty sure that VH1 has been around almost as long as MTV. MTV2 was created because MTV forgot how to play videos.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

OMG are you ever so wrong about baby boomers not inventing MTV. Gen X'ers were still flashes in the pants when it first came out. Heck I was 21 years old when MTV was born and very much the age group for which it was marketed for back in 1981.

As baby boomers grew older, we changed. However MTV's demographics remained targeted at the same age group. MTV had to stay young, so the generation that spawned MTV needed another network to cater to their music. Hence VH1 was born. Eventually VH1 became the more mainstream video channel leaving MTV to do the more alternative stuff and hip hop music. And that answers your question about VH1. No it's younger than MTV.

Now regarding innocence until proven guilty. No one is charging you with anything when a drug dog is sniffing your locker or backpack. Just as no one is telling you you have illegal contraband or a bomb on you when you go thru the detectors at the airports but I don't see anyone complaining about their civil rights being violated there.

But lets take that statement "innocent until proven guilty" Well in order to prove you guilty you have to have some form of probable cause. And as Kaneohe Girl indicated, schools are where it happens.

As I said before, if you're screaming about violation of civil rights, you got more to hide than your screaming. To a normal person, if you got nothing to hide BFD sniff my ass, I hope you enjoy it too. But if you got something you don't want anybody to find especially if it's not supposed to be there, you'll be screaming like a friggin maniac!

Civil rights are to protect the innocence of our citizens. But if you're not quite so innocent, you'll be the first one on the defensive. That's human nature.

One thing I do feel however is that the use of these drug dogs should be used with discretion. Meaning when these dogs are out and about, there should be representatives of both the student body (elected by the students), school authorities AND a neutral third party bearing witness to these searches so there is no distinction in how and what was discovered.

If a locker is suspected of having drugs a search warrant is issued then standard laws on illegal contraband are exercised and whatever legal action is applied thereafter. There's nothing illegal about that. Just as holiday sobrietary automobile check points are used to find drunk drivers on the road.

As for drugs in schools, I have kids in them. I work hard...no...REALLY F*@king hard to keep my kids out of that loop of messed up people in this world. I don't need some crackhead or dealer influencing my kids. If these dredges of society make it into school grounds then by all means there is probable cause that drugs have infiltrated what should be a safe haven.

Anyone got a problem with that? If so then wait until some doped out kid on ice takes out his MP-5 machine pistol and rakes the school yard taking out your kid. WHOSE CIVIL RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED THEN HUH!!! Nobody protects the rights of victims anymore. Well anytime somebody uses common sense and applies that to a world of dopeheads they got my nod.

Reality check here...Drugs in school is a bad thing. Finding them and the bastards dealing or using them is a good thing. Using drug dogs to find them is a better thing. Drug dogs won't sniff out innocent people. So don't worry they won't bother you...unless...

Bring in the dogs.

[Miulang]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

If there's anyone out there naive enough to believe that the only reason that Lahaina school was planning to bring in drug dogs was to prevent kids from being able to buy drugs, can I sell you a bridge to nowhere in Alaska?

One of the REAL reasons the school is planning to do this is because they want to cover their okoles. In this litigeous society, where everybody is suing everybody else, the school doesn't want a parent to sue it if one of the students ends up in trouble due to the lack of the school's due diligence.

As Craig says, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. HOWEVER, by allowing for "equal" surveillance of everyone (they also use dogs to sniff all passenger cars at our ferry terminals under the ruse of national security), it also means that as citizens we are passively giving up our right to privacy. Is that what we really want?

If parents were that concerned about drugs, wouldn't they be monitoring what their kids were doing? Wouldn't they be teaching their kids to stay away from that stuff in the first place? Why do some parents believe that the schools should be in loco parentis and have the responsibility of babysitting the kids? Why aren't moral values being taught at home?

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

That's the problem Miulang (BTW the coffee grinder still going strong )...In a perfect world every parent would be investing their time and efforts in their kids and their school. Unfortunately there are only a few core group of parents in each school that really try to do anything to help their kids and their friends in school. The rest are pretty much deadbeat parents who think schools ARE there for babysitting.

WE try our hardest to keep our public schools safe to the point of going to the State Legislature to lobby for safer schools. WE are actively involved on the campuses to keep those that are intent on harming our keiki away from the campuses and hopefully behind bars. But WE can't do it on our own, we need the help from every parent and involved citizen in those respective communities to reach out and help us squash these bastards like the cockaroaches they are.

So when anybody has any workable way of helping us we are all for it. Privacy rights are one thing, however you aren't being inconvenienced during these searches, there is no pat down or cavity search. There is no violation of your personal belongings because the scent is wafting beyond the borders of that backpack or locker.

But if there are drugs and the dogs pick it up, then there IS probable cause for futher searching.

And Miulang you're right about the litigation part. When a parent drops their kid off at school or anywhere a child will be supervised, then it becomes the responsibility of that receiving party to bear any liability if that child becomes hurt while under their supervision. And that includes inviting your kid's friends over to your home for a birthday party. Schools must show that they can protect their students to some level in order for the State and Federal government to insure liability coverage. Failure to do so would probably mean decrease or no government subsidy for school programs.

Any Attorney General will vouch for that. Drug dogs give some indication of pro-active action taken on the part of the school, the State and the Federal government. Lack of any action would open the floodgates of lawsuits for allowing students to enter a government institution without providing some level of protection KNOWING there is a threat of drug activity or related harmful consequences on that campus.

Is it to protect the government? Hell yeah! But who is the government? It's all of us taxpayers who must subsidize any lawsuit from any personal injury case against the government. WE as taxpayers lose if we don't cover our okole's. I want my social security when I retire but if lawsuits prevail it will be harder and harder to get it if these lawsuits keep on coming in. Eventually the government will step in to protect it's coffers, drug dogs are there to make our jobs of keeping bastards out of our schools easier.

Privacy rights are one thing, but when that right to privacy is hiding something that could kill my kids (or any innocent person for that matter), then you have to compromise somewhere for the safety of the rest of us innocent bystanders. And that's the price we have to pay to allow us to exercise our rights for another day.

You have the right to stay up as long as you want, but eventually you gotta take a few winks so you can stay up another day and still appreciate the scent of them roses when you have that right to smell them too!

Privacy has it's limitations and when that privacy is harming others, then you lose that right.

Bring in dem dogs!

[Peshkwe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

As long as the teacher and other 'adult' non-student areas are included in the sniff run.

At least show the kids just because you're an adult or 'official' you don't get exemption. In my opinion with something like this it's all or none, don't make a touchy-feely show of it...really do it. Teachers and staff can use as easily as students.... and if they do...the kids know who they are.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

Yep I agree, sniff that Teacher's lounge too! Geez are we the only two up at this hour?

[Peshkwe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

I'm giving my daughter a few minuts extra snooze time before I have to really get her up for good. She has two wake up times, the first is at 6am for her meds, then she can go crash again for a little bit.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

Ho geez I've been there, and the really sad thing is that there's nothing on TV this time of the night except Paid Advertising infomercials.

Anyway it's 2:37 am as I type this and I gotta get to bed so it's lights out for me...hope your daughter gets better soon!

Snoozes!

[Peshkwe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

Ho geez I've been there, and the really sad thing is that there's nothing on TV this time of the night except Paid Advertising infomercials.

Anyway it's 2:37 am as I type this and I gotta get to bed so it's lights out for me...hope your daughter gets better soon!

Snoozes!

Heh....it's 8:24am here


She'll get better eventually, she had brain surgery this past november for epilepsy, they took a chunk out of her meatloaf. So far so good but I won't know really how well it worked 'till she can start having her meds reduced.

[timkona]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

My answer to the two questions is. . . . . .no and no. . . but I'm also not a teenager in school riddled with a ridiculous amount of peer pressure to try this and try that.

Maybe we should look to history in our analysis of "prohibition laws". Would you judge alcohol prohibition as a success?

The kids who try drugs, and the kids who choose NOT to try drugs, are the same kids regardless of the laws. All the resources being wasted on the "WoD" could be better spent on books and computers.

Lockstep dogma within the populace is the goal of malicious propaganidizing. Starting with the Hearst papers in the early 20th century, the powers that be have waged the perfect propaganda campaign to support the War on Drugs.

It has been shown that monkeys in the wild will seek out and eat the spoiled fruit. Ever wonder why?

Speed Kills, Drink Coffee....I mean just say no to drugs like cigarettes, alcohol, and aspirin....uhhh...i mean when i was a kid, a fried egg was breakfast. Yummy !!

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

part of the WoD is education. Awareness is key to prevention. Prohibition alone won't do it but in this case, awareness has been one of the most effective weapons against teenage drinking and drug use.

Drug Dogs are being used to sniff out offenders, not prohibit drug use on campus.

Yes we can't do a whole lot outside the schools but inside those boundries, the kids can learn and understand that drug use is a bad thing. But when dealers and users infiltrate school grounds, then it's time to go on the offensive and get the drugs out before they can do anymore harm.

To stop the widespread use of drug addiction here in America, you must educate the masses. Part of that is to start young and that's in school. Eventually that educated mentality will evolve into parents who will expound on the evils of drug use and then we see a major shift for the better.

But that shift won't ever happen if the core of learning is tainted by the abuse it's trying to eradicate. That's when education isn't enough and you gotta bring in drug dogs. This is not a privacy issue here, but a safety issue. A kid who's high on drugs will have a greater tendancy to be out of control than one who's sober. You can't talk a kid out of terrorizing a campus when he's strung out on crack.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Bringing in Drug Dogs

three cheers for my kids' charter school! With its family environment, and where every family understands that while it is a public school, it is still a school of CHOICE. We choose to be here. We must choose to work together for the sake of all of our kids. It isn't perfect, but you won't find any graffiti on the campus, never hear about fighting, the idea of suing on behalf of my poor child is an unimaginable sitatution and the staff, kids and parents know that we have to back each other up.