20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

[Adri]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I wonder if anyone has done a study of Hawaii's graduation rate history? It sounds like a big number to say that 30% of our students don't graduate but is that actually a decrease from prior years or is that an increase or is it just the same? I am assuming the failing 30% of students include students who just don't go to school or who stop going as well as students who attend every day, strive their best and still somehow don't earn grades sufficient to graduate. I have no data on this but I suspect that Hawaii's past includes far more students who just stopped going to school or who didn't attend school than we have today (what with our modern truancy laws).

eta: According to the United Health Foundation, in 1990, Hawaii was ranked 6th (with a graduation rate of 84.5%) out of the states for high school graduation, ranked 41st in 2003 (61%) and 37th in 2004 (64.8%). The measurement is the percentage of 9th graders who graduate within 4 years and are considered regular graduates by the state. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.or...es/Hawaii.html

I wonder what happened between 1990 and 2003? One report I read seems to attribute some of the difference to changes made in education/graduation measurements made by No Child Left Behind but that alone isn't enough for such a big difference.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I wonder if anyone has done a study of Hawaii's graduation rate history? It sounds like a big number to say that 30% of our students don't graduate but is that actually a decrease from prior years or is that an increase or is it just the same? I am assuming the failing 30% of students include students who just don't go to school or who stop going as well as students who attend every day, strive their best and still somehow don't earn grades sufficient to graduate. I have no data on this but I suspect that Hawaii's past includes far more students who just stopped going to school or who didn't attend school than we have today (what with our modern truancy laws).

eta: According to the United Health Foundation, in 1990, Hawaii was ranked 6th (with a graduation rate of 84.5%) out of the states for high school graduation, ranked 41st in 2003 (61%) and 37th in 2004 (64.8%). The measurement is the percentage of 9th graders who graduate within 4 years and are considered regular graduates by the state. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.or...es/Hawaii.html

I wonder what happened between 1990 and 2003? One report I read seems to attribute some of the difference to changes made in education/graduation measurements made by No Child Left Behind but that alone isn't enough for such a big difference.

Maybe the following article might help explain the differing data. There is acknowledge gaps in the graduation rates depending on which data source is being used: http://www.all4ed.org/publications/wcwc/Hawaii_wc.pdf

Kind of wordy and complex for me. I skimmed it and don't understand the reason for the gap.

[acousticlady]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

I do a lot of outreach for physics & math in elementary & high schools throughout the nation. There are 3 areas that stick out as having the worst rates - New Orleans, Brooklyn and Hawaii (which is always listed by state rather than by district). I am actually very interested in this topic. I don't know if I have any answers however. I am more involved with the state of STEM disciplines in the schools. The info I have is that graduation rates in these areas are around 48%. Keep in mind that the statistics I come across are usually in grant proposals from people in these areas trying to obtain funding. And I always look at statistics questionably. Like anything else, stats can be skewed to promote one's agenda.

[Adri]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Thanks GnosticWarrior!

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Hopefully we can find the truth about our educational system. It's good to question the stats and scores and understand the validity of it. The more we all can agree on a collective solution to the problem, the more chance of change actually taking place.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Interesting article that might link American students test scores in Math and Science and their ability to compete in the global market.

The numbers have dwindled again, though, and the problem appears to be starting in grade school. About 40 percent of U.S. high school seniors fail to perform at the basic level in math, according to a recent federal study.

As Americans fall behind, employers across all industries struggle to find workers elsewhere. The government provides 65,000 H1-B visas for foreign professionals every budget year; the quota for fiscal year 2007 was reached well before the year started on Oct. 1, 2006.

Simons recently spoke to the AP about math education's importance on America's competitiveness in the job market.

What does the workforce at Renaissance say about Americans' skill sets?

Simons: The workforce at Renaissance reflects the paucity of trained Americans ... They're Chinese, they're Japanese, they're French, they're German, they're Icelandic, they're Russian, they're Polish -- I think have 20 countries represented.

Once in a while an American walks through the door, and we grab him if he's good, but fewer and fewer such folks are coming through the door.

We have, as a nation, been saved by H1 visas to bring people in ... and by sending out work to be done in India that had previously been done here. And India's not the only one capitalizing on our lack of trained people in America.

That can only go on for so long. India will get more wealthy ... and there will be jobs for those people back at home. Our supply is going to diminish and we'll be stuck.

I'm a big believer in immigration, but we shouldn't be dependent on immigration in our most sensitive, highly leveraged areas.

[acousticlady]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Interesting article that might link American students test scores in Math and Science and their ability to compete in the global market.

Well - I hope you were looking for a response......

Unfortunately, it is so engrossed in our culture that anything math and science related is only for the geeks and should be avoided at all costs. I keep harping on physics, but this is where our education system is severely lacking. When you look at other educational systems in places like China, Japan and various Europian nations it is their emphasis on physics education. It is the one difference between their educational systems and ours. In China, students begin to study physics in the 6th grade and by the time they graduate high school they have a full 4 years of physics behind them. I also make a distinction between physics and science. When you say science to someone the first thing they envision is someone wearing a white coat in a laboratory playing with chemicals. I can vouch for the fact that very few physicists ever wear white coats and very few ever see the inside of a chemistry lab (forget biology labs - we don't even know where they are). One difference is that when someone describes themselves as a physicist, they are explaining who they are - not what they do. In that respect, being a physicist is like saying you are christian or buddist. We also look at math as a language - and tell our students that all those courses they took in math class were really the equivalant of taking grammar and sentance structure in English class. And of course, add that by taking physics, it is the equivalant of taking a literature class.

Of course we have many programs set up through organizations such as the American Physical Society and the American Association of Physics Teachers. It is a huge uphill battle however. We tell the teachers and administrators, lobby the politicians in Washington, and yet, it still falls on deaf ears. One of the biggest hurdles is that this is a multi-generational problem. Our teachers cannot teach it because they themselves were never exposed to it. And their teachers were never exposed to it. And so it goes......

Many of us have dedicated our lives to changing this. My own efforts lie in an interdisciplinary approach to education - which of course includes a liberal dose of physics

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Well - I hope you were looking for a response......

Unfortunately, it is so engrossed in our culture that anything math and science related is only for the geeks and should be avoided at all costs. I keep harping on physics, but this is where our education system is severely lacking. When you look at other educational systems in places like China, Japan and various Europian nations it is their emphasis on physics education. It is the one difference between their educational systems and ours. In China, students begin to study physics in the 6th grade and by the time they graduate high school they have a full 4 years of physics behind them. I also make a distinction between physics and science. When you say science to someone the first thing they envision is someone wearing a white coat in a laboratory playing with chemicals.

It is a huge uphill battle however. We tell the teachers and administrators, lobby the politicians in Washington, and yet, it still falls on deaf ears. One of the biggest hurdles is that this is a multi-generational problem. Our teachers cannot teach it because they themselves were never exposed to it. And their teachers were never exposed to it. And so it goes......

Thanks for responding. From what I read, Bill & Melinda Gates, Warren Buffett, and Charlie Munger all think that the status of our educational system in America is one of the most important topics that people should be talking about.

However, after reading some of John Taylor Gatto's work, I'm coming to the conclusion that trying to change the system is a waste of time. If you as a parent are aware that the system is flawed, then you would also know what you can rely on school to do and not do. Then it's up to you to supplement any shortcomings.

Part of the reason why I posted this article is bcs too many people try to spin the data on how the govt. monopoly on education is failing. To me it can't be any clearer.

According to John Taylor Gatto, Americans like Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, and George Washinton accomplished all that they did without little formal education. I think this is true. So while the Asian educational system has more formal study in subjects like physics, In the U.S. if one so desires to learn, we have libraries or other learning resources available. If parents and students can't recognize the value of an education, then that probably explains why our educational system is not working.

[acousticlady]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

In the U.S. if one so desires to learn, we have libraries or other learning resources available. If parents and students can't recognize the value of an education, then that probably explains why our educational system is not working.

Soooo true! We can point the blame at whoever, but it comes down to a desire to learn. And that desire to needs to be instilled in our children. But that can only come from home. It is absolutely necessary for parents to instill a love of learning in their children. The parents themselves do not have to be experts in anything in order to do this. Just as my husband and I did with our son (and our parents did with us) - constantly harp on the subject. Everything is about learning. If you don't know it, look it up!

When my son was little we would regularly go to the library for no other reason than to learn something new. Pick out a book randomly and look at it. If that book leads to more questions, find the answers! That being said, I do believe there is a place for formal education - particularly in the STEM disciplines.

I also think the internet is a double-edged sword. It is much easier to publish "rubbish" on the internet than it is to publish in print. So some care needs to be taken in the content of material obtained on the internet. Always question.............

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: 20/20 John Stossel's 'Stupid In America'

Here's a quote from JTG's book "The Undergound History Of American Education" chapt. 3. Here he was talking about the real version and the made for school version of the book "Moby Dick"

One way to see the difference between schoolbooks and real books like Moby Dick is to examine different procedures which separate librarians, the custodians of real books, from schoolteachers, the custodians of schoolbooks. To begin with, libraries are usually comfortable, clean, and quiet. They are orderly places where you can actually read instead of just pretending to read.

For some reason libraries are never age-segregated, nor do they presume to segregate readers by questionable tests of ability any more than farms or forests or oceans do. The librarian doesn’t tell me what to read, doesn’t tell me what sequence of reading I have to follow, doesn’t grade my reading. The librarian trusts me to have a worthwhile purpose of my own. I appreciate that and trust the library in return.

Some other significant differences between libraries and schools: the librarian lets me ask my own questions and helps me when I want help, not when she decides I need it. If I feel like reading all day long, that’s okay with the librarian, who doesn’t compel me to stop at intervals by ringing a bell in my ear. The library keeps its nose out of my home. It doesn’t send letters to my family, nor does it issue orders on how I should use my reading time at home.

The library doesn’t play favorites; it’s a democratic place as seems proper in a democracy. If the books I want are available, I get them, even if that decision deprives someone more gifted and talented than I am. The library never humiliates me by posting ranked lists of good readers. It presumes good reading is its own reward and doesn’t need to be held up as an object lesson to bad readers. One of the strangest differences between a library and a school is that you almost never see a kid behaving badly in a library.
The library never makes predictions about my future based on my past reading habits. It tolerates eccentric reading because it realizes free men and women are often very eccentric. Finally, the library has real books, not schoolbooks. I know the Moby Dick I find in the library won’t have questions at the end of the chapter or be scientifically bowdlerized. Library books are not written by collective pens. At least not yet.

Real books conform to the private curriculum of each author, not to the invisible curriculum of a corporate bureaucracy. Real books transport us to an inner realm of solitude and unmonitored mental reflection in a way schoolbooks and computer programs can’t. If they were not devoid of such capacity, they would jeopardize school routines devised to control behavior. Real books conform to the private curriculum of particular authors, not to the demands of bureaucracy.

I was curious as to why his homeschooling Kinza Academy Cirriculum only goes up to the 6th grade level. But after reading the first three chapters of his book, he mentions how children were given more responsibilities back in the day. Thomas Edison, Ben Franklin, Andrew Carnegie were working at around age 12/13 and maybe eariler. Nothing beats man's natural desire to use his problem solving ability. The cirriculum these men followed was to work during the day and do their independent studies at night. That's how inventors work. Trial and error, followed by research, then trial and error again, followed by more research.

Also by being assigned tasks they did not care for, they discovered what tasks they would actually desire and yet still perspire for. Their research followed the problems they desired to solve. Formal education has its place however, if I had to choose one, I'd say working at an early age with independent study in a library would produce better results. Your search for the answers would make you seek out higher skilled people to assist you if you needed it.

Lucky back then though, there was no t.v. or internet to distract them. After work people enjoyed reading, writing, drinking, making music and dance. A pretty well rounded cirriculum if you ask me.