CFL Bulbs

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

I don't know how you can get a 25 CFL to be as bright, much less "brighter" than a 60 incandescent.

Sorry if you know this, but I'm not sure of your level of technical knowledge.

"Watt" is a measurement of electrical power. It measures the amount of power going into the bulb, not what we get out of it. For some odd reason, we've all been conditioned to think of bulb brightness in terms of "watts" and not "lumens" which is the correct way to measure light output.

When you go to the store and see "60W" CFLs, what they are really saying is "This bulb puts out the same amount of light as a 60W incandescent". If you read the smaller print, you'll find the bulb actually draws more like 15W.

And that is the whole magic of CFL - you are replacing 60W bulbs with 15W bulbs and not sacrificing brightness.

I still am not pleased with the CFLs brightness of light.

The next time you go to buy more CFLs, that might want to compare the lumans with the incandescent bulbs you would have bought rather then taking the "guide" at face value. I haven't looked recently, but I seem to remember a time when the guide was a bit optimistic. Also, CFLs do dim during their life, so you may want to start on the bright side so that it doesn't become too dark as it approaches end of life.

Since there are three-way as well as non three-way CFLs, I think we'd be foolish to take chances with them. ... and with so many websites clearly stating they can be a hazard when not put in the proper fixture, I personally choose to err on the caustious side.

While 3-way CFLs exist, they aren't that easy to find. (Heck, 3-way incandescents are hard to find too.) I'm not sure as I'd put too much trust in all those websites. First of all, they claim "danger" without explaining it. It starts taking on the air of a "old wives tail". As for Craig and myself, we're both technical people and by nature skeptical until the issue is explained.

In my opinion, any CFLs with a base that would cause a problem with a 3-way light, should be removed from store shelfs as a safety hazard. I can think of no good reason why the manufacturer would ignore accepted standards to create something hazardous.

[scrivener]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Now this should probably go under pet peeves, but...... neon tubes (or lights) will ONLY emit bright red light for the same reason mercury will only emit blue. Hydrogen tubes will emit a magenta color, Helium a peachy color, oxygen a pale blue and so on. Every element has it's own unique fingerprint of wavelengths it will emit. So the next time you hear someone talk about the neon lights on Broadway, tell 'em if it ain't red, it ain't neon!

I remember this from high-school chemistry. Thanks for the reminder and the great explanation, which I'm still working on.

One thing that puzzles me is that even the most rudimentary graphics-editing programs can mix red, green, and blue in such precise amounts as to be nearly ridiculous. Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?

And lastly, they are working very hard to produce LEDs that will emit (collectively) white light. They have successfully produced red and blue but green is giving them a hard time. (I know the guys who are working on this.)

This, too, is fascinating. Why aren't there three-color overhead incandescent lamps that let you play with the intensity (sorry if that's the wrong word) of each color, perhaps with a dimmer, so you can adjust the white light in your living room to your own preferences? I remember those old projection televisions had three lamps; why didn't, say, ceiling fan lights ever get like that? Seems like it would be a cool thing, especially if you could use Photoshop (or something similar) to adjust the RGB values and then plug those numbers into the lamp.

I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

[joshuatree]

Re: CFL Bulbs

I remember this from high-school chemistry. Thanks for the reminder and the great explanation, which I'm still working on.

One thing that puzzles me is that even the most rudimentary graphics-editing programs can mix red, green, and blue in such precise amounts as to be nearly ridiculous. Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?


This, too, is fascinating. Why aren't there three-color overhead incandescent lamps that let you play with the intensity (sorry if that's the wrong word) of each color, perhaps with a dimmer, so you can adjust the white light in your living room to your own preferences? I remember those old projection televisions had three lamps; why didn't, say, ceiling fan lights ever get like that? Seems like it would be a cool thing, especially if you could use Photoshop (or something similar) to adjust the RGB values and then plug those numbers into the lamp.

I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

I'm no expert but I would suspect the lack of three-color ceiling fan lights would be because they don't focus their respective beam of light onto the same area to create the varying shades of white one wishes. Also, I figure the biggest reason would be cost.

However, in the LED world, this is fast becoming a reality as certain jets already have this feature to help create the varying lighting conditions to simulate day, sunrise, sunset, evening. The new 787 definitely touts this feature.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787...k63450-09.html

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Somebody at the Advertiser is listening. Today's Bureaucracy Buster tackles... you guessed it... mercury in CFLs.

[glossyp]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Somebody at the Advertiser is listening. Today's Bureaucracy Buster tackles... you guessed it... mercury in CFLs.

While I agree that the risk of mercury in a single CFL is minimal, the writer could have done a better service to the community by providing a link to the EPA guidelines or the Energy Star site where more detailed information on managing broken CFLs is available. The headline in itself is a bit misleading and anyone who doesn't read the entire piece won't understand the minimal safety precautions they should take when one is broken

[Karen]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Glen, that's just the problem I have run into. That article reportedly is about the mercury? I'll check it out next but it's just my point...about the mercury and not the fire hazard of three way, dimmer, or totally enclosed fixtures. KGMB did a story on the mercury weeks ago when that's not the biggest issue with these things.

KSSK did email me back and said "thank you for the email. Will handle it." This is a start to bring correction and rewording to the current campaign to get us all to use them in all of our fixtures.

(mercury in them has never concerned me & this is why it's frustrating to keep hearing about the mercury, the mercury...when there's bigger issues with them)

[acousticlady]

Re: CFL Bulbs

I appreciate your expertise and thank you for your contribution to this discussion. If I say something that's technically ignorant, please remember this, the day I didn't correct your punctuation or spelling!

Ha - not a problem! I am awful at that! They never made us take that in school. So if you don't mind my chiming in on the physics stuff, I have no problem with you teaching me to spell or punctuate stuff. I usually rely on spell check

As far as creating lights to change hues - good old incandescent lights would be a better option than gases. The problem with mixing gases is that you want the inert gases in the tubes you are using. Otherwise - kaboom The inert gases are subject to the laws of quantum mechanics and will only produce certain wavelengths. Green seems to be the biggest issue. Hydrogen will produce green, but only under certain conditions - like in a nebula cloud. Not so easy on earth. The old fashioned bulbs create their light using a solid material. All solids produce the full spectrum to some degree. This too is dependant on the material used and the temperature at which they are heated. When you look at a light bulb through a grating, you will see a "rainbow". Some of these will have a wider red section and very thin blue. You will then see the light as a reddish glow. As the temperature gets higher, the filiment glows more yellow. Heat it higher and it will glow toward the bluish end. Unfortunately, what makes the temperature increase is an increase in voltage. Here in America, we are stuck with 120 V maximum. Maybe in Europe.

[Karen]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Dig this! A dear friend I have made online that lives in Canada reports that their country has outright banned the incandescents, and I didn't ask but sure, I bet there's a few years, well I hope a good amount of time for the phasing them out. I have been busy and haven't asked her yet about how educated they are about the possible hazards of the things the greenies have forced upon them.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Now this should probably go under pet peeves, but...... neon tubes (or lights) will ONLY emit bright red light for the same reason mercury will only emit blue. ... So the next time you hear someone talk about the neon lights on Broadway, tell 'em if it ain't red, it ain't neon!

Having seen plenty of neon bulbs, isn't neon more of a orange then red? Or is that some other mixture of neon?

And lastly, they are working very hard to produce LEDs that will emit (collectively) white light. They have successfully produced red and blue but green is giving them a hard time. (I know the guys who are working on this.)

Odd. Green LEDs have been around for ages. Is the problem getting the right shade of green or getting enough light out of it?

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Why can't these same computers find a way to mix gases in amounts precise enough to mimic the character of any light conditions in any given region on any particular day?

I don't think you can mix gasses in a particular tube. The electrical characteristics aren't compatible. Mixing gases by the consumer isn't practical. If you mix the gases at manufacturing, then you have what we have now - you go the store and buy the color you want.

You could have separate tubes and mix them together. But then there's the cost issue. Not just the cost of the system, but the cost of operation.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

I'll check it out next but it's just my point...about the mercury and not the fire hazard of three way, dimmer, or totally enclosed fixtures. KGMB did a story on the mercury weeks ago when that's not the biggest issue with these things.

I beg to differ. First of all, let's exclude all the CFLs that are not UL approved or are falsely UL labeled. That's not a problem that's unique to CFLs. That's the whole reason that Underwriters Laboratory exists is to catch devices that are not properly built and create a hidden safety issue. I'm not sure, but I believe that excludes the link I saw of a CFL where the plastic melted and actually caught fire. Feel free to correct me if it was UL approved.

It's possible that excluding non-UL approved CFLs would also exclude CFLs that have safety issues with 3-way sockets. I don't know. But I do think they should be removed from sale.

That leaves two other issues: Dimmer and totally enclosed. While they both present hazards to the CFL's life, they will not cause a fire hazard with a CFL that's been properly designed and tested to die safely (part of the UL tests). A CFL in a enclosed fixture will never get the fixture as hot as a incandescent.

Now, as far as the hazards, what about incandescents? They run much hotter. Placing too large a bulb into a fixture can overheat it and start a fire. Especially if the fixture is bolted to something flammable - like wood. If the bulb gets broken leaving the filament intact you get a shower of sparks. Have that happen over a carpet or some papers and you can have a fire.

So if there's a push for safety, it needs to be along the lines of "always use UL approved bulbs, always read and follow the directions that come with the bulb". But on a whole, CFLs are no more hazardous then the bulbs they replace.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Unfortunately, what makes the temperature increase is an increase in voltage. Here in America, we are stuck with 120 V maximum. Maybe in Europe.

For a given bulb, voltage does determine temperature. But a bulb can be engineered for any voltage desired. Otherwise automotive bulbs that run on 12V wouldn't exist. The real issue is that the hotter the bulb, the shorter the life. Halogen lights are incandescents with a special design that allows them to run much hotter, and therefore more "white" then the common incandescents. Details. However, Halogen lights have to be used with some care because they do run hotter.

[acousticlady]

Re: CFL Bulbs

For a given bulb, voltage does determine temperature. But a bulb can be engineered for any voltage desired.

Absolutely! In fact, common household bulbs can "run" on minimum voltage (err....current). In fact, I prove this in class using a variable voltage source. It's just that our standard power supply comes from the sockets in the walls. These are fixed. But dimmer switches work exactly that way.

[acousticlady]

Re: CFL Bulbs

Having seen plenty of neon bulbs, isn't neon more of a orange then red? Or is that some other mixture of neon?

Odd. Green LEDs have been around for ages. Is the problem getting the right shade of green or getting enough light out of it?

Good call! yes, neon is more orangey (is that a word???) Actually, when you look at it's spectrum, neon displays many lines in both orange and red and even a few in green and yellow. Most people's eyes are less sensitive to changes between orange-red and red so in you took a poll, most would call it red.

I'm not real sure about what the exact problem is with the green LEDs. I'll ask and get back to you on that.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: CFL Bulbs

In fact, common household bulbs can "run" on minimum voltage (err....current).

Whichever. You have to have voltage to have current. You have have a power source that can supply the needed voltage and current "requested" by the load's impedance. (Sorry, I've seen too many people get wrapped up in that whole thing.)

In fact, I prove this in class using a variable voltage source. It's just that our standard power supply comes from the sockets in the walls. These are fixed. But dimmer switches work exactly that way.

If you've got a variac that's wired right, you can take up above the AC mains voltage. Another alternative is to see if you can get ahold of Japanese bulbs. They are 100V. A standard dimmer now becomes "dim", "normal" and "bright".