Thoughts on plagiarism?

[damontucker]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

My 2 cents...

I think he failed to give reference. My idea of plagiarism is that he would copy word for word.

What I think we here in Hawaii are actually more guilty of... Is being a Media illiterate society and relying to much on the written word for information.

I've been reading his articles for the last 8 years...and I swear... there must be more than just the amount of articles that have been discovered that were "re-worded"

I have been reading mainland net sites for the last 10 years now... and a lot of the stuff I would read in Ryan's Column I would think...sheesh... I know where he got that from.... etc....however, never really thought twice about it.

I also see that happening on several LOCAL NEWS BROADCAST(S) during the news... I hear there stuff at night...and say... sheesh..... they read that right off the "Yahoo... Odd and Interesting Web site" Does Joe Moore give Credit to Yahoo... NO!!!!!!

What I would say... If anything... is that he was a good compiler of things... and w/ his position w/ the paper...he also gained access to other things...(maybe free tix... etc) I would just say that it is kind of sad that we here in Hawaii are so isolated to things on the mainland and that we really often ignore other papers that are out there. Not only that... sometimes I feel as though we here in Hawaii take our local paper(s) as the only informative news source out there.

I know I'm gonna get spammed on my comments...thats ok... I work for the State and I know how many "State workers" that have not grown up in this digital era that we are in.

With the digital era...it is real easy to access news and knowledge... When one passes this down through the newspaper as there "own knowledge" then I think that person must feel shame sometimes when they see there stuff in print.

I've worked on the UH Hilo paper and written for them for about a year (thanks pz for the opportunity at the time) however, the stuff that I wrote had to come from my own head because back in 95-96 I hardly even knew about the internet and search engines. Back then research had to be done on your own.

And one last comment... I've heard that he was a Leak to a media outlet about some of the "Lost" episodes that were about to be broadcast. (Source: heard it from a reliable friend that has close ties to one of the "others")

[kimo55]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

I'm pretty sure this is the all-time capitol of kicking people when they're down.

your world? HT? Hawaii?
...Hey! if everybody here in the capitol is doin' it, let's do it, too! wheee!

"I am gonna do what I assume everybody else is doin', cuz that justifies it!"
yep, smells like aloha spirit, alrightee!

[pzarquon]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

I also see that happening on several LOCAL NEWS BROADCAST(S) during the news... I hear there stuff at night...and say... sheesh..... they read that right off the "Yahoo... Odd and Interesting Web site" Does Joe Moore give Credit to Yahoo... NO!!!!!!

With all due respect, given this comment, I think some of the "plagiarism" you're seeing out there can be attributed to wire and syndication services. For example, Yahoo! didn't generate those "Oddly Enough" articles, Reuters did. Yahoo! syndicates Reuters stuff. KHON, the Star-Bulletin, the Advertiser, they all do, too, and/or the Associated Press, AFP, and probably a dozen other similar networks. So the exact same story will appear in a thousand newspapers and on a thousand websites. They might rewrite it, add a local angle, summarize it in a pithy one-line sign-off, and at that point attribution can get a little fuzzy.

Of course, if a bylined story is largely derived from a wire story, there's usually a credit at the end noting such ("The Associated Press contributed to this story."). If a reporter or columnist neglects this for a wire service, though, it's probably not the end of the world.

Some of the citations in this case, though, were clearly plagiarism from original sources, in at least one case using quotes as if he conducted the interview when it was actually an NPR interview. I really like Ryan, I probably cite his columns more often than anyone else's in conversations, and I know the pressures to produce must have been great. But transgressions like these demand the most severe penalties. Especially because, in my view, adding "in an NPR interview" to an article probably wouldn't have reduced my enjoyment of it, and appreciation of Ryan's work, one bit.

He's got a lot of talent, and good contacts, and probably knows that in this town, you sometimes can come back from the dead. I hope he'll be writing somewhere again someday.

In the mean time, maybe he'll start a blog. I'd read it.

[wordclerk]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

Land of Aloha? That got paved over when I was still at Stevenson, getting threatened in the bathroom, "Naturally" playing on the radio.

Kimo55, how come it's OK for someone in Ryan's position with one of two major dailies to plagiarize word-for-word from other sources, but you lambast a first-time writer in a freebie weekly for not getting his facts straight? What playing field of aloha you playing on?

[kimo55]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

But transgressions like these demand the most severe penalties.

Uh, that would be electrocution, while being hanged, in the quillotine, having to listen to Danny Couch.

Noooo, Timbo doesn't deserve the most severe...

[Composite 2992]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

Plagarism is theft. Plain and simple.

Theft of someone else's hard work and enterprise.

And it hurts a newspaper's credibility, something that's hard to earn and easily lost.

Quoting and paraphrasing with attribution is all fine and well. But when you try to pass off someone else's work as your own, that's just wrong. Songwriters sue for big bucks over things like that. There's the issue of copyright infrigement and other serious legal action.

Plagarism opens up a publication to all sorts of liabilities. So it's more than just losing the trust of its readership.

Journalism schools try to instill a sense of ethics at the very start. Basic reporting is followed by media law in college. Unfortunately for some it's too easily forgotten.

If it were just one incident perhaps a suspension might be appropriate. But repeated infractions translate into an indifferent attitude toward important principals of journalism. And for a business that depends on the trust of its readers, it's unacceptable behavior.

[damontucker]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

With all due respect, given this comment, I think some of the "plagiarism" you're seeing out there can be attributed to wire and syndication services. For example, Yahoo! didn't generate those "Oddly Enough" articles, Reuters did. Yahoo! syndicates Reuters stuff. KHON, the Star-Bulletin, the Advertiser, they all do, too, and/or the Associated Press, AFP, and probably a dozen other similar networks. So the exact same story will appear in a thousand newspapers and on a thousand websites. They might rewrite it, add a local angle, summarize it in a pithy one-line sign-off, and at that point attribution can get a little fuzzy.

Of course, if a bylined story is largely derived from a wire story, there's usually a credit at the end noting such ("The Associated Press contributed to this story."). If a reporter or columnist neglects this for a wire service, though, it's probably not the end of the world.

Some of the citations in this case, though, were clearly plagiarism from original sources, in at least one case using quotes as if he conducted the interview when it was actually an NPR interview. I really like Ryan, I probably cite his columns more often than anyone else's in conversations, and I know the pressures to produce must have been great. But transgressions like these demand the most severe penalties. Especially because, in my view, adding "in an NPR interview" to an article probably wouldn't have reduced my enjoyment of it, and appreciation of Ryan's work, one bit.

He's got a lot of talent, and good contacts, and probably knows that in this town, you sometimes can come back from the dead. I hope he'll be writing somewhere again someday.

In the mean time, maybe he'll start a blog. I'd read it.

Good answer PZ... but one more question though....Then how come the Television News Stations don't credit reuters and/or AP...etc....when they talk about a story on air that is so blatantly off the newsline?

Is everything supposed to be "common knowledge." I just don't understand sometimes I guess.

At least in the credits at the end of the broadcast or something????

Maybe like a tagline such as...

"Not all news that is reported was researched by us... often times our news is compiled and gathered from numerous different sources....or something????"

This would seemingly clear them of any perceived possible lawsuits.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

By the way, I feel bad for Tim and especially his family.

He just burned his career at a time when the entire industry is shrinking.

Why someone would commit such a sin is beyond my ability to understand. Considering the pressures of having to get the lastest scoops in that particular industry, I might have some sympathy. But I'd never condone it.

And if I were his boss, I'd have no choice but to let him go.

[kimo55]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

Land of Aloha?
That got paved over when I was still at Stevenson, getting threatened in the bathroom, "Naturally" playing on the radio.

AAahhh, we see past aural torture creates current wholesale resentment and clouds judgement...

Kimo55, how come it's OK for someone in Ryan's position with one of two major dailies to plagiarize word-for-word from other sources,

cuz he's da man!

(wait: " plagiarize... word-for-word from other sources"... uuuhhhh... how else can ya plagiarize?)

but you lambast a first-time writer in a freebie weekly for not getting his facts straight?

I refuse, refute, lambast, repudiadte and demand a refund when one plays with crooked facts!

What playing field of aloha you playing on?

I'm playing on the Aloha Playing Field© of aloha where aloha plays when it plays on a field of playing full of aloha, playing "Naturally" while you play in the bathroom... uuuuhh. what was the question?

[kimo55]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

Good answer PZ... but one more question though....Then how come the Television News Stations don't credit reuters and/or AP...etc....when they talk about a story on air that is so blatantly off the newsline?

assumedly, when you subscribe to wire services, you pay for the facts. or uuhhh... "the truth"... as some have it.
(newsmedia can not offer the truth. Truth is subjective. They CAN, however promise to offer you the facts. And hopefully, do)

anyway, in paying for these facts gathered researched and handed to you in predigested form, you are given rights to use them at will.
See? pay and play.
No pay, no play!

[damontucker]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

assumedly, when you subscribe to wire services, you pay for the facts. or uuhhh... "the truth"... as some have it.
and in paying for these facts gathered researched and handed to you in predigested form, you are given rights to use them at will.
See? pay and play.
No pay, no play!

You don't have to pay for them though?

[damontucker]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

You don't have to pay for them though?

However you don't have to subscribe to most of the sites where the information is common knowledge such as Yahoo. It's on their front page and you don't even need to sign up for accounts.

[kimo55]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

You don't have to pay for them though?

aaahhh ... umm.. Ya lost me at hello.

[Keith H.]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

Yipe. Here's the Wikipedia article, and here's a side-by-side comparison of various alleged incidents of plagiarism. I agree that the NPR citation is the most damning.

You might notice something familiar in the side-by-side comparison and in the edit history of the article...yep, I can claim some of those unattributed words as mine. I actually found out about it around the beginning of the year, and I was actually sort of amused at first...I had no idea that it was much bigger than this.

I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I should be flattered that some of my writing made it into the Star-Bulletin. On the other hand, certainly the collective writing and editing effort of as many as 40-50 people deserves a mention of some sort. At least, I think so.

Sorry to see such a promising career go down in flames like that...

[Keith H.]

Re: Thoughts on plagiarism?

My 2 cents...

I think he failed to give reference. My idea of plagiarism is that he would copy word for word.

Suggest that you go up a few pages, examine the comparison, and make up your own mind.

What I think we here in Hawaii are actually more guilty of... Is being a Media illiterate society and relying to much on the written word for information.

I would think we don't rely on the written word enough, so dependent we've become on sound bites and snappy quotes. But that's me.