The Iraq War - Chapter 4

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

It's a subtle difference with enormous ramifications in today's world. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you have any Muslim friends, and they have failed to convert you, then they violate their own religious text by NOT trying to kill you. A peaceful Muslim, in a world of infidels, is impossible by the rules of the Quran, and the dictum of "convert or kill".

You cannot logically defend what is written in the Quran. It's an evil little book.

Yes I have Muslim friends, and no, not one of them has tried to convert or kill me. Are they aberrations? I think not. And if the Quran is an evil little book, then so is the Torah, the Bible, and every other religious tome ever published. If you LOOK for reasons for the ideologies to be different, you will most certainly find them. I, for one, tend to think that they all have more things in common than not. Where wars get started is when the line between a religion and politics get blurred.

Miulang

P.S. Taking one comparative religion class in college does not an expert make.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

It's an evil little book.

Neither the Quran nor the Bible are, in and of themselves, evil - it's the followers of their contents, who choose to do extremist or horrific deeds "in the name of" those texts, that are evil.

[nachodaddy]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

My all time favorite band. Can't wait for a tour date in Los Angeles. Couldn't make Coachella this year. A show not to be missed.

Right On. I like Maynard's lyrics but it is Justin and his Bass Whammy that blows me away. I used to play bass and it is just insane the sounds he can make and still keep time. I have seen them twice live and the music they represent is repeatable AKA not just a product of layers and layers added in the studio. Mucho concentration and discipline to pull it off.

Way OT- let's get back to the war............

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Nachodaddy & sinjin - you can't be fanatics about Tool - you changed the subject! (Sorry - sometimes you just can't resist the opportunity; posted with smiles to you both.)

[nachodaddy]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Discipline, Leo, discipline.

Back to politics, war, and religion

"killing in the name of..." heard that somewhere before.

Tim, don't bring logic in here, it falls on deaf ears. Rely on pendantic rhetoric or connect the dots with improbable either/or scenarios or just connect the dots with no validation, whatever. Oh..don't expect to get a question answered either.

Religion/politics blurry?- separation of Church and State- unless someone wants to take the stance of the religious right.

The frontline is everywhere, there be no shelter here.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Discipline, Leo, discipline.

Five bucks, same as in town.

Oh..don't expect to get a question answered either.

What's the question? Tim & I, despite our regular disagreements, have been making more of an effort to actually answer the questions we've posed to each other. I may have missed one out on the table (or perhaps it wasn't posed to me.) I read a lot of answered questions here; it's just that sometimes the answers aren't what I wanted or expected - but it doesn't mean they aren't answered.

[nachodaddy]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Five bucks, same as in town.
What's the question? Tim & I, despite our regular disagreements, have been making more of an effort to actually answer the questions we've posed to each other. I may have missed one out on the table (or perhaps it wasn't posed to me.) I read a lot of answered questions here; it's just that sometimes the answers aren't what I wanted or expected - but it doesn't mean they aren't answered.

Nothing you did. No worries. We were having a fairly logical discussion on the Quran and it kinda died. Some of these rebuttals are pretty soft, IMHO, which is probably another way of saying that the question was answered.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Check this blog out if you want to know what's going on in Iraq..

In today's news (Wed., June 21)...

"...The Department of Defense announced today the death of two soldiers who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died in Ar Ramadi, Iraq, on June 17, when an improvised explosive device detonated near their HMMWV during combat operations. Both soldiers were assigned to the 40th Engineer Battalion, Baumholder, Germany. Killed were: Sgt. Reyes Ramirez, 23, of Willis, Texas and Spc. Robert L. Jones, 22, of Milwaukie, Ore. (DefenseLink)...

"...Army Spc. Robert Jones, 22, was killed Friday in Baghdad. Kathy Walker, a family friend, told The Oregonian that Jones was hit by mortar and died instantly....

"...The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004. But the Army's Criminal Investigation Command found that one or more of the Iraqis attached to the American soldiers on patrol fired at them, a military official said Tuesday....

"One of Saddam Hussein's main lawyers was shot to death Wednesday after he was abducted from his Baghdad home by men wearing police uniforms, the third killing of a member of the former leader's defense team since the trial started some eight months ago. His body was found on a street near the Shiite slum of Sadr City...."

Marine Lance Cpl. Brandon Webb, 20, of Swartz Creek, died Tuesday in Iraq. The Department of Defense has not yet revealed details of his death.

OTHER SECURITY INCIDENTS

Baghdad:

A parked car bomb exploded near an ice cream shop in the Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City, killing at least three people and wounding eight.

Australian security guards mistakenly opened fire at the bodyguards of Iraqi Trade Minister in western Baghdad, killing one of them and wounding two others, an Interior Ministry source said. He said that the incident occurred when the Australian security guards were suspicious of armed men outside al-Sudani's office in the restive area.

Gunmen killed the imam of a Sunni mosque on Monday in his house in Shula district, the Association of Muslim Scholars said in a statement.

Gunmen killed a high school teacher in the same neighbourhood, the association added.

An Iraqi soldier was killed in fierce clashes in the western district of Baghdad on Wednesday. A source at the police told KUNA the fierce clashes occurred between the Iraqi army forces and unknown gunmen in Al-Mansour area. The US army-backed Iraqi forces surrounded the area and started exchanging fires with the gunmen killing one soldier, said the source. The size of damage caused by the clashes is still unknown.

An Iraqi patrol stormed a building in Baghdad's Mansour district, detaining 20 people, after a sniper opened fire on the soldiers, killing one, a witness said.

Taji:

Gunmen abducted dozens of Iraqi factory workers on Wednesday as they were being ferried home after work in a fleet of buses just north of Baghdad. Five busloads of employees of the state-owned Great Victory factory at Taji were commandeered by dozens of gunmen in at least five cars. One source put the number of people kidnapped at 80 to 100, another at 100 or more.

Hit:

Two policemen were killed in Hit. Authorities say gunmen killed one officer as he was standing near his house.

Tikrit:

Gunmen kidnapped three relatives of the deputy governor of Salaheddin province.

Mosul:

Two policemen were killed in Mosul. Authorities say the other officer died during clashes with insurgents in Mosul.

16 bullet-riddled bodies were found in various Mosul neighborhoods over the past 24 hours. Ten of them were identified as soldiers, police, traders and a former Iraqi army officer under Saddam Hussein.

Basra:

Unidentified gunmen stormed a school in Basra and assassinated its director in front of students, and then fled.

The deputy chief of the Sunni Endowment religious organisation in Basra was wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near his car.

Batofa: (Area)

An Iraqi civilian was killed and another two got injured when a left-over-bomb exploded in Batofa area near the Iraqi-Turkey borders...."

So much for the demise of al-Zarqawi bringing a reduction in violence in Iraq.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

The Mujahideen Shura Council is the group that purportedly released the statement claiming responsibility for the execution of the 2 soldiers from the 101st Airborne. If they do in fact exist, it means that all the fragmented little terrorist cells that were running loose in Iraq are now coalescing into one group. Would that make it easier to get rid of them?

"...The MSC includes the following insurgent organizations: al-Qaeda in Iraq, "Jaish al-Taifa al-Mansourah" (Victorious Sect Army), "Saraye Ansar al-Tawhid" (Ansar al-Tawhid Platoons), "Saraya al-Jihad al-Islami" (Islamic Jihad Platoons), "Saraya al-Ghoraba" (the Strangers Platoons), "Kitaeb al-Ahwal (the Calamities Brigades) and "Jaish Ahlul Sunna wa al-Jamma" (Army of Ahlul Sunna wa al Jamma).

At first glance all these organizations appear to be in the Salafi-jihadi orbit and distinctly separate from the Iraqi nationalist resistance. "Al Taifa al-Mansourah" (Victorious Sect) is a classic Salafi designation that is often employed in war. Both Ansar al-Tawhid and Jihad al-Islami are oft-used Salafi-jihadi martial terminologies. Yet the latter is also used by militant Shiites (most notably in Lebanon) and is also the name of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which is not Salafi. "Al-Ghoraba" (the Strangers) is a cryptic term alluding to the Salafis' belief that Islam is led to victory by a very small core of dedicated elites who remain anonymous. In other words they are not effusive about their service and sacrifice. While "Kitaeb al-Ahwal" (the Calamities Brigades) is not an immediately Salafi-jihadi designation, it corresponds to the jihadis' methods of creating fear and terror in the ranks of their enemies. Finally "Ahlul Sunna wa al-Jamma" is perhaps the most classic Salafi designation, having been appropriated by dozens of organizations around the world.

The central questions revolve around how real this coalition is and whether the declaration of unity is of any consequence to the evolution of the insurgency. An Iraqi source (who wishes to remain anonymous) told Terrorism Focus that only Zarqawi's al-Qaeda in Iraq is a widely recognized organization; the others (with the exception of Jaish al-Taifa al-Mansourah) are largely unknown. This does not mean, however, that the names are fictitious, but that the organizations are very small, perhaps not exceeding "a few dozen members." The smaller organizations are believed to be mostly operating in the southern fringes of Salahudin province and the northern periphery of Nineveh province (particularly in and around Mosul).

While the MSC appears to be overwhelmingly dominated by the Zarqawi network, the declaration of unity—at the very least—points toward the existence of small Salafi-jihadi groups, hitherto independent of al-Qaeda. It could also indicate a tactical ploy by al-Qaeda in Iraq to downplay its centrality to the Salafi-jihadi wing of the insurgency (at a time when sectarian tensions in Iraq are reaching dangerous levels) and provide disproportionate media coverage to small and obscure insurgent groups. Whether this leads to the strengthening of these small Salafi-jihadi networks (and hence to the widening and deepening of Salfi-jihadis' influence in Iraq) remains to be seen, but Zarqawi's stature among jihadis both in Iraq and beyond is unlikely to diminish in the foreseeable future. ..."

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Is our occupation of Iraq a "just" war? Go through this little exercise and decide for yourself if the fighting in Iraq is just. If the so-called war in Iraq is "unjust", then it must be illegal. And if you really want to get into it, here's a website that's devoted to the philosophical discussion of "just" war theory.

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

In this case, I would say it's the "eye for an eye" thing. I don't think the Quran says you should aggressively go after anyone who is not threatening you in some way.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. For instance, Tim quoted ""When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them" (9:5) "
Doesn't sound very eye-for-an-eye to me. Sounds like, you know, an AMBUSH.
Anyway. Carry on.

[LikaNui]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

The Bible and The Quran are not even close to each other in terms of level of violence. Sure, the Bible has some bloody parts, but the Quran has distinct references to "convert or kill". Hard to find that in the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible's version, Christians say you get punished after death. If you don't believe in Islam, Allah gives permission to his followers to kill you.
It's a subtle difference

Subtle? Not so much. I would've said it's a highly flagrant difference.

[LikaNui]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Neither the Quran nor the Bible are, in and of themselves, evil - it's the followers of their contents, who choose to do extremist or horrific deeds "in the name of" those texts, that are evil.

Bingo. We have a winner.

[1stwahine]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Bingo. We have a winner.

Thanx for the reminder Likanui!

It's Bingo Night @ MWH!!!!

Ok. ok. Back on topic. I hate the Conflict in Iraq!

Auntie Lynn

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 4

Bingo. We have a winner.

And isn't that was I was also trying to say? That if the Quran is evil, then so is every other religious tome printed?

Miulang