The "Real" Middle Eastern War

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

I received these articles in an email from a dear friend. They reinforce and refine a previous post.

Opinion Journal - August 22

"There is a radical difference between the Islamic Republic of Iran and other governments with nuclear weapons. This difference is expressed in what can only be described as the apocalyptic worldview of Iran's present rulers. This worldview and expectation, vividly expressed in speeches, articles and even schoolbooks, clearly shape the perception and therefore the policies of Ahmadinejad and his disciples."


The Iranian Mullah's Aim

"It is the sacred duty and privilege of every Muslim to do all he can to hasten the death of the old world and the birth of the global Islamic Ummah."
"The Islamist reality is that the non-Muslims are the ones who deserve to be done away with; they are the ones who have refused to submit to the summons of Allah for much too long; and, it is time for the faithful to get rid of them."


Amil Imani is an Iranian born American citizen and could care less about being PC.

"Useful Idiots are... willfully in denial or deceptive.
He is the master practitioner of euphemism, hedging, doubletalk, and outright deception."

[Miulang]

Not a moment too soon...

The UN Security Council today unanimously approved the US-France resolution for cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah. Both Israel and Lebanon approved the revised resolution.

However, Israel can still maintain its defensive posture against Hezbollah so long as Hezbollah continues to lob rockets and the current resolution does not address the issue of the return of either Israeli or Hezbollah prisoners. There will be an additional agreement forthcoming over the next few weeks.

Here's Ha'aretz' take on the resolution's approval, the Jerusalem Post's coverage, and Naharnet (Lebanon) coverage.

Miulang

P.S. Here's the approved resolution. And this is what they started with last week.

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

I don't see a difference between this and Resolution 1559.

If Hezbollah couldn't be "disarmed" before, with or without weapons how is UNIFIL (the UN joke on Israel) going to disarm the terrorists now?
How can you find Hezbollah when all they have to do, and have done before is - go home, hide the AK47 and katushya rocket launchers? Or find them when they sneak into Iran and Syria for shelter?

How can UNIFIL tell uniformed Hezbollah from un-uniformed Hezbollah once they hide the weapons and shed the Islam-fighter gear and flag?

Meanwhile, Israel is still stuck, having to fight back Hezbollah until UNIFIL arrives - and will still get slammed by antagonists while defending herself.
Fifteen UN Security Council members unanimously approve the US-French ceasefire proposal for the Lebanon conflict Friday

And if UNIFIL soldiers find themselves being massacred – who will be there to save them? Iran? Syria? Lebanon?

I pray this will work, but Hezbollah's track record - says it won't.

[Miulang]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Levia:
I corrected by link (am using a Washington Post link). I also included a link from Ha'aretz with the original proposal. I'm gonna print both out and see if I can detect where the changes were. My guess is it was mostly semantic changes (wars can get started over semantics! ).

Miulang

P.S. And, like you, I hope both sides respect this resolution and the one that has come after this to completely settle the issue. If the Lebanese and UNIFIL forces can't control Hezbollah, and Hezbollah continues to lob missiles in the direction of Israel, then of course Israel has a right to fight back. But I don't know if expanding the ground war in Lebanon would be such a good idea. Not if you value the lives of the Israeli soldiers.

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Levia:I corrected by link...

I removed my link, once I saw your edit. Thank you.

But I don't know if expanding the ground war in Lebanon would be such a good idea. Not if you value the lives of the Israeli soldiers.

Every life is valuable - it's not just Israelis. But why do you think this resolution or ceasefire, took so long? Because everyone, not just the US and Israel, wants Hezbollah broken. UNIFIL soldiers, right now, are grateful that Israel is at the task of destroying as much of Hezbollah as they possibly can.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

(wars can get started over semantics!)

Or even by anti-semantics?

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Or even by anti-semantics?

Bad joke Leo... I know - I thought the same thing!

tsk-tsk-tsk...

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Bad jokes are a specialty of mine, I fear.
So is the interjection of humor into an extremely tense situation.
Moving on now...

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Bad jokes are a specialty of mine, I fear.
So is the interjection of humor into an extremely tense situation.
Moving on now...

Yeah, I'm hoping there's a cease-fire here on HT too...
Bad jokes are good - makes us laugh and not take ourselves too seriously.

BTW, have you heard the one about the imam, the rabbi, and the priest....?

[Miulang]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

I removed my link, once I saw your edit. Thank you.



Every life is valuable - it's not just Israelis. But why do you think this resolution or ceasefire, took so long? Because everyone, not just the US and Israel, wants Hezbollah broken. UNIFIL soldiers, right now, are grateful that Israel is at the task of destroying as much of Hezbollah as they possibly can.

I have said that myself since the very beginning of this thread...that all lives are valuable. What took so long to get to this point? Diplomacy takes much longer to resolve problems than a military solution. With a military solution, you usually have a winner and a loser. With diplomacy you have to make sure everybody saves face (i.e., no one thinks they lost), while giving everybody enough that they feel like they are getting something in the bargain. When a resolution is too one-sided (as the Lebanese thought the first draft was), it makes the side that doesn't see enough in it for them feel like they have lost. And you never want to think that you've "lost". But when you look at everything from the 1,000 foot level, it's what makes the most sense for everybody that counts.

Miulang

P.S. were those 3 religious people in the same boat?

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

I have said that myself since the very beginning of this thread...that all lives are valuable. What took so long to get to this point? Diplomacy takes much longer to resolve problems than a military solution. With a military solution, you usually have a winner and a loser. With diplomacy you have to make sure everybody saves face (i.e., no one thinks they lost), while giving everybody enough that they feel like they are getting something in the bargain. When a resolution is too one-sided (as the Lebanese thought the first draft was), it makes the side that doesn't see enough in it for them feel like they have lost. And you never want to think that you've "lost". But when you look at everything from the 1,000 foot level, it's what makes the most sense for everybody that counts.

Miulang

P.S. were those 3 religious people in the same boat?

You refer to Lebanese as if they are Hezbollah. There's a difference right there Miulang. Not all Lebanese are Muslim, not all are Islamists. You insinuate that Zionists are like Nazi's and your "peaceful Jews" remarks are racist. I look at all lives as valuable - you make grand statements on a podium, like above, and say you feel the same way, but your other words prove differently.

You forgive and make excuses for terrorists, yet they are the ones murdering every free-democratic person they can.

There is a huge difference, Miulang, and don't take my joking around for ignorance. You and I are not the same, not even on the same page.

[Miulang]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

You forgive and make excuses for terrorists, yet they are the ones murdering every free-democratic person they can.

There is a huge difference, Miulang. You and I are not the same, not even on the same page.

Not all Lebanese are Hezbollah (I already acknowledged that there are 17 different officially recognized Muslim and Christian religions in Lebanon), in the same way that not all Israelis are Zionists. But 40% of the Lebanese population are Shia. Not all Shia have pledged fatwa. Only the Shia extremists have. Shia extremists make up the terrorist/political group known as Hezbollah. Hezbollah was born out of the last occupation of Lebanon by Israel. Those are facts. I am not Lebanese and I am not Shia. I am not a Jew or Israeli or a Zionist, I only know what I read and hear from other people and from the international press.

Of course the terrorists are bad, but why did they become killers? What in their upbringing changed them from being good citizens to become radical extremists, when most of their fellow followers of the faith are not terrorists?
When and why did they learn to hate more than to have respect for those who think differently from them? Which of the Palestinian kids in the occupied areas of Gaza and the West Bank will become the next generation of Hamas? Surely not all of them will become terrorists. Which of the Shia kids living in South Lebanon, having gone through the conflict of the last month, will grow up to become Hezbollah militants? I really can't say anything about the Israeli kids who are learning to hate Muslims because eventually most of them will end up in the military (for them it's not so much a choice) but it really saddens me when I see little kids signing bombs "with love" or kids stoning other kids because they practice a different religion. Maybe it's just human nature...to distrust people who are not like you. It happens way too often for it not to be hereditary. But how do you break the chain of hate if you don't start with the children? That's why I hope organizations like Seeds of Peace (endorsed by Queen Noor of Saudi Arabia) can grow and flourish so that kids can learn about their "enemies" and learn how to resolve conflict without having to resort to violence all the time.

Levia, I don't care if we never agree on most things. It's more important to discuss rationally what the differences are.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Radical Islam v. Islam

I came across a very interesting editorial about the differences between Radical Islam (i.e., al Qaeda and its cousins like Hezbollah) and mainstream Islam. Again, it's all in the interpretation of something that was written many centuries ago.

Bin Laden and other Islamic radicals claim they represent ancient Islam. It is true that they do represent one tradition in Islam, but it is a tradition that Islam early on rejected as opposed to the universal message of its Prophet. In the earliest centuries of Islam, a great civil war was fought over who should be the successor to Muhammad. The battle was between the partisans of the assassinated third Caliph, Uthmann, and those who supported the fourth Caliph, ’Ali. This was the conflict that ultimately led to the division between Sunni and Shi’a Islam. But there was a moment when a truce and an arbitration promised a possible peaceful resolution to the conflict.

...One group was adamantly opposed to any arbitration and any compromise. Later called the Kharajites, this sect believed that only God could determine who should be the proper successor, and God would let his will be known in battle. The Kharajites withdrew and made war on both factions. They held that any person who strayed from the perfect practice of Islam was ipso facto an apostate and could be killed. And they believed that only they had the true notion of what Islam required. They applied their doctrine with a ferocity against both the developing Sunni and Shi’a traditions of Islam, even assassinating ’Ali. Their tactics were frightfully violent, and it took centuries before they were put down.

...Today, radicals like bin Laden replicate that ancient sect that threatened to destroy Islamic civilization at its inception. They copy that sect that stood against what came to be a civilization known in its time for its learning, science, openness and toleration. They engage in tactics that are far beyond what is acceptable in the Islamic moral tradition. They insult the vast multitudes of Muslims who abhor such actions.

...Partly because of the timidity of the West, these radicals have gained influence. Some regimes protect them. Some apparently even sponsor them. . Many leaders in the West, bereft of and often hostile to their own Christian roots, have patronizingly assumed that radical violence was an essential part of the Islamic faith. Our own weak responses have helped to legitimate those whom Islam fought so earnestly to rid itself of at its beginning. If we have respect for ourselves, if we have respect for Islam, we can no longer tolerate the evil they represent. Two civilizations hang in the balance.

I also came across a very interesting thread by Robert Pape, considered to be one of the world's leading experts on terrorism, on Sean Hannity's website:

Researching my book, which covered all 462 suicide bombings around the globe, I had colleagues scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and biographies of the Hizbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. We were shocked to find that only eight were Islamic fundamentalists; 27 were from leftist political groups such as the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union; three were Christians, including a female secondary school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.

His contention is that the reason why radical Muslims attack Westerners is because Westerners occupy land they (the Muslims) consider their own. It's not out of religious fervor that suicide bombers kill themselves and others, but a desire to regain what they perceive they have lost.

Miulang

[Levia]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

were those 3 religious people in the same boat?

2 are religious men, 1 is a religious fanatic.

When a resolution is too one-sided (as the Lebanese thought the first draft was)

Nasrallah gave an absolute "no" to a multi-national force entering Lebanon, and specifically ordered PM Siniora to obey his command. Siniora wanted the resolution to go through - badly. Hezbollah is taking over the government, didn't you know?

And now, what will the Christians do? They want Hezbollah out of Lebanon.
Remember, al Qaida ordered the massacre of Arab Christians in Rhiyad, 2003. Pregnant women, children burned to death.
bin-Laden called for the cleansing of all people of the book meaning Christians. The Christians in Lebanon took it seriously.

And now there's Nasrallah, sitting in Iran, giving orders here, making threats there... all the while, anticipating the day he "cleanses" Lebanon of Christians.

Christians, fleeing Lebanon, are condemning Hezbollah. And yet people here, argue that Hezbollah is on the side of the Lebanese! In previous wars, Lebanese Christians were on the side of Israel, passing secrets, doing damage to the PLO from within... If Israel were the culprit, why on earth would non-Hezbollah, non-Shiite side with Israel? It's a simple question.

NY Times: "Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets," said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village.
"They are shooting from between our houses. Please," he added, "write that in your newspaper."
He begged that the "real" story be told. It's painful.

Someone said you're posting your guts out, but wheres the "real" story? We get "Israel Bombing Christians!" and false information on homicide bombings and terrorism. But wheres the real information?

Hezbollah was born out of the last occupation of Lebanon by Israel. Those are facts.

Hezbollah is the continuation of the PLO, and is funded by Iran and Syria. That is the fact and you know it, Miulang.

Of course the terrorists are bad, but why did they become killers?

What is your answer to that?
Another cut and past? "...the reason why radical Muslims attack Westerners is because Westerners occupy land they...consider their own."
BTW, Miulang, do you know the Koran is quite clear that "Medinah" was originally a Jewish city? Koranic text is very clear that the Jews were violently and cruelly pushed from Medinah. Assuming the Koran is true, the Jews have a claim, don't they?

Fanatical Islam believes the entire world belongs to Arabs. Did you know that we are cancers that have to be eradicated or we'll continue spreading a spiritual disease and infect Islam? If you're truly searching for answers, Miulang, look in the Koran. It's still the same as it was centuries ago.

A Muslim will not bear arms against his brother - a radical Islamist IS a Muslim.

What in their upbringing changed them from being good citizens to become radical extremists...?

Oh, I'd like to hear your excuse. Really, I want to know.

My answer is - In the case of Arab children, growing up in Arab-Islamic territories, it would be brainwashing from a young age, in schoolbooks, children's songs and games, Islamic teaching, jihad programming (like "Arafat's Little Generals" - children in diapers in summer boot camp) and tons of propaganda.

For the white kids converting to Islam and feeling the need to murder, your guess is as good as mine. But I hardly think that those 17 year olds are concerned with US foreign policy and land ownership. Teenagers are gullible, go figure.

When and why did they learn to hate more than to have respect for those who think differently from them?

Old lingo "occupied".
Again, Miulang… they learn it in school books, in commercials, school plays, from their imam, from their idad....

Which of the Palestinian kids in the occupied areas of Gaza and the West Bank will become the next generation of Hamas?

The children in Khan Yunis will make up half. Ahhh... I remember Khan Yunis well, where young boys literally kill other boys for insulting their mothers. Good boys... I guess.

There's a tremendous problem with "impulse control" in Khan Yunis. They're
poverty stricken, will risk their lives for chocolate candy, martyrs are glorified with large posters and banners (extremely scary), martyrs are promised that their families will receive money for they're martyrdom, families given free trips to Mecca for their suicide....

Palestinian children serve as screens for Hamas wielding M-16s and the like. The young rock-throwers? They often carry gasoline bottles (Molotov cocktails), you don't see that in pictures, and there's usually an adult with an M-16 hiding behind them.

The other half of the new generation of terrorists? Take you pick. Where government force people to live in poverty while the leaders get fat on humanitarian aid, where children are force-fed religious extremism and martyrdom, where they are brainwashed into believing that suicide/homicide is the way to heaven, where the governments keep them uneducated - that's where you'll find the next generation of terrorists. Dumb, crazed, hungry for blood, killing machines. And yes, Miulang, that is in Gaza and the West Bank.

After every suicide bomber, the relatives are interviewed, and they praise the suicide for the deed. These praises are published in Arab papers. These boys are influenced by such praise, and in such an environment, they are encouraged to act similarly.

I really can't say anything about the Israeli kids who are learning to hate Muslims because eventually most of them will end up in the military (for them it's not so much a choice)

Israel is a very tiny speck, in a large and very hostile land. It's about survival.

Yes, it is horrible that Jewish-Israeli children have to live with the fear of constant attacks. Fear breeds anger. When a homicide bomber walks into a diner and triggers his bomb-belt and commits mass-murder, its traumatic - and triggers a little fear. It is terribly unfortunate that Israeli children have to get on busses that may not reach its destination, or that turning down the wrong street means you’ll be stoned by other children, men, women….

but it really saddens me when I see little kids signing bombs "with love"

It does me too. And it was the first time you've ever seen anything like it come out of Israel.
I blame the parents, and that behavior shouldn't be ignored, but those children in Kiryat Shmona, had been in a bomb shelter for five days. They live directly on the border with Lebanon and were under bombardment, day-in and day-out. They were happy to be alive and outside. They are children, and hardly thought the shells would kill anyone other than Hezbollah. I'd like to see you survive under that kind of duress. Most adults in America couldn't.

And for your information, the writing said "To Nasrallah, with love". It was irresponsible of the parents, but who thinks after such traumatic experiences? No one. And I wouldn't blame Lebanese children if they were caught on camera doing the same.

As I said, I don't condone what happened, but those kids meant for the message to go to Nasrallah.

or kids stoning other kids because they practice a different religion.

What the hell are you talking about now? The youtube clip? There was nothing in that clip about religion. Your agenda is showing.

We've seen all the pictures of Palestinian kids whipping rocks - and guess what? Sometimes they're stoning Jewish-Israeli kids! But you never see that side of the camera. Where is your compassion for the Jewish kids? And you do know the women that filmed it were speaking Hebrew at times? Jewish women protecting Palestinian kids. Strange, huh? Go figure! But how do we know the Arab kids didn't stone the Jewish kids the day before? Hour before?

Yes it's a battle, no it's not the children's fault, yes, it makes the heart bleed - for ALL the children suffering.

But how do you break the chain of hate if you don't start with the children?

How do you get to these Muslim children before Islamism does?

Who is the enemy?

You still haven't answered that.

I answered as much of your inquiries as I could. This is too long, but its too late, I'm going to bed.

[kamuelakea]

Re: The "Real" Middle Eastern War

Here we go again. Another dumb and/or mute Middle Easterner. (medically speaking of course) Just like the Hilogirl. Kapi'olani Community College professor Ibrahim Dik returns to Hawaii.

He escapes from Lebanan. I see a story. Before I read it, I know there will be absolutely no mention of the terroists who have taken up residence amongst the Lebanese civilians. I know there will be no suggestion that the terrorists are the cancer that must be irradiated. I know there will be whining and opining and complaining about the death and destruction in ways that few could disagree with.

And guess what? I was right again.

This clown is a KCC professor and (not surprisingly I guess) cannot see the disease of the middle east and therefore cannot help to defeat it. The disease is partially in his mind and the mind of hilogirl. They are part of the problem. The endless wars will never end as long as otherwise normal individuals like this continue to supress the truth because it might make them feel bad.

Please search this article for some mention of the root cause of this conflict.

Hezbollah? no,.......
Terrorists?,,.....no,
Iran giving weapons?,,,,,,,,no,
Syria giving directions?......no,
Thousands of missiles fired from backyards killing Israeli's?...... nope.

Nope, just crying about the destruction to Lebanon by Israel.

Thats why this problem will never be resolved.







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