Hating on China

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

In my fantasy world:

After invading Afghanistan, young Americans would want to speak Farsi. After invading Iraq, young Americans would want to read Arabic. After the Olympics, young Americans would want to learn Cantonese and Mandarin.

Why, what's wrong with the Ilocano language? We gotta invade the Philippines to get [non-Ilocano] Americans to speak that?

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Hating on China

sitting on their butts in a jail cell 24/7/365... Ever tried it?

Yeah. It's called a job.

(yes. I'm kidding)


As I have never lived in jail nor known anyone who has, I must admit I know very little about their life. It would be interesting to hear stories anyone has to tell (either first or second-hand).

And, they do not eat well. Those that put on muscle do so by spending their time working out.

When I say "well" I don't mean good tasting. I mean high protein content, which is what their bodies use to grow muscles.

I must admit I don't know much about human physiology. Maybe it doesn't take much protein to build a lot of muscle? It just seems body builders and athletes go nuts with the high-protein diets. Maybe it's just superstition and savvy marketing?

Anyways, I thought about it more and it's probably best to have all inmates well muscled. Restricting protein would just turn food into another commodity, which the nastier elements can monopolize.

Then you the whole "cruel and unusual punishment" thing. Of course cruel is relative. I suppose that's why they threw in the "unusual" part in there.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Hating on China

Why, what's wrong with the Ilocano language?

Nothing

We gotta invade the Philippines to get [non-Ilocano] Americans to speak that?

Nope


Man, Random. You're just keeping me on my toes today.

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

Man, Random. You're just keeping me on my toes today.

China itself is great and impressive. China's government however, not so great. Unless you have a good argument for communism (aside from being a great advantage in my Civ3 computer game).

In my fantasy world:

We have a Filipino for US President and the Second National Language is Ilocano.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Hating on China

Unless you have a good argument for communism (aside from being a great advantage in my Civ3 computer game).

LOL. Powergaming for the win.

In my fantasy world:

We have a Filipino for US President and the Second National Language is Ilocano.

I'd be cool with any non-white man as prez. I'd be happy if we had any second official language. Even if it was Spanish or whatever.

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

I'd be cool with any non-white man as prez. I'd be happy if we had any second official language. Even if it was Spanish or whatever.

Not Spanish. Not Whatever. It's ILOCANO.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Hating on China

China itself is great and impressive. China's government however, not so great.

ZING! Right to the heart of the issue. Making sure that there is a distinction between "the people of China" and "the government of China."

Just imagine if the rest of the world judged the American populace based exclusively on the actions of the American administration.

Whoops...too late.

I'd be cool with any non-white man as prez.

"Man" only, MJ?

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

Just imagine if the rest of the world judged the American populace based exclusively on the actions of the American administration.

How can they when our own US Constitution's Preamble says WE THE PEOPLE created our government under a historic document?

Besides, the people of China are great, except they cannot have their own opinion (except back in 1989) but the government's. They cannot even express their opinion or concern about the government-built schoolhouse that collapsed during the earthquake. The government couldn't be sued if the parents of the young earthquake victims tried.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Hating on China

Besides, the people of China are great, except they cannot have their own opinion (except back in 1989) but the government's.

China does not live alone in that behavior. For that matter, I can not think of a single innocent government in the world.

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

China does not live alone in that behavior. For that matter, I can not think of a single innocent government in the world.

Hey, I gripe about my government so many times. I don't see them sending out cops to haul me or silence me. Or that every reporters must be accompanied by a culture officer.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Hating on China

I don't see them sending out cops to haul me or silence me.

And you never will. See them coming, that is. Until it's too late...

[Random]

Re: Hating on China

And you never will. See them coming, that is. Until it's too late...

Hey, I'm still here.

[Nords]

Re: Hating on China

TV and the Internet are long range technologies which manipulate citizens into believing they are there, that they understand what's going on, when they really don't.
[I made a few comments about soldiers. I know a few ex-soldiers, and I've read a few military authors, but I can't claim to know the military well. I'm interested in hearing from military folks, especially if they think I've gotten the details wrong.]

I think you've succinctly summarized your military knowledge in these two paragraphs. (But that's better than claiming expertise.) I have some experience and even a little expertise.

Have you read Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts" or "Hog Pilots"? Both books are an excellent view of the "real" soldier-- a surprising & significant number of whom are Reservists & National Guard, not "full time" active duty. "Masters of Chaos" is another good summary of the SF life. All are in the state's library system. It's a bit more educational (and perhaps more factual) than gory YouTube videos.

Hating on China is the first step towards mobilizing our citizens to war on China. Soldiers are conditioned to dehumanize and demonize the enemy; it makes killing easier. Weapon systems have become long ranged, removing soldiers from death and carnage (EXTREMELY graphic).
Ridiculing the enemy is also another tool which enables soldiers to kill, and for citizens to let it happen. Watch this AC-130 gun camera footage (first rounds impact @ 1:28). Now watch the same footage with a soundtrack.

I think you're extrapolating a lot from a few minutes of video footage. If my 20 years in the submarine force is any indication, it'd be interesting to see how much of that video excitement is surrounded by hours and hours of boredom-- stretching from days to weeks. It's especially frustrating to watch the enemy "getting away with something" while you're doing surveillance, collecting intel, and putting together the plan. No wonder people get a little overwrought-- even if they're not performing for the camera/soundtrack.

I think you'd be impressed by the amount of time the Army, especially the Rangers & SF, spends on "human contact" training. My nephew did two tours in Afghanistan and a few months in Iraq in late 2002/early 2003 (yes, before "opening day"). He finished USMA in May 2007 and has spent most of the last year in one school after another. He's in his sixth week (of nine) of Ranger School now. It's not so much about leading a platoon as it is civil relations. He's learned dozens of words in Farsi & Pashtu both in school and "on the job"-- a sort of Middle East pidgin. They practice negotiating with & working with local leaders. Dealing with crowds. Seeking mission accomplishment, not confrontation. Packing 100 pounds for miles and navigating through darkness are skills expected on day one so that the training can focus on the skills that they'll spend most of their time using-- watching, being seen, talking, and socializing.

Dehumanization doesn't work. It's the hallmark of amateurs. You can cheer on your troops like a bloodthirsty Saturday-night high-school football coach but if you don't teach them respect for the enemy's competence & creativity then you won't be coaching those troops for very long. I spent a lot of time on station, and making fun of the opponent's skills was a sure way to get your overconfident assets in trouble. There's a retired Marine senior officer, now a defense contractor for exercise scenarios, who spends all of his time making the U.S. military look foolish through guerilla warfare and low-level sabotage. He says he has to impress & humble them before the real training can begin.

If long-distance killing actually worked all the time then the last two Gulf wars would've been fought by the Air Force's missile & bomber branches, and the Army & Navy would've been happy to give them the budget to do so. I suspect that the majority of this war's engagements have started at eyeball distance but finished with air strikes because that's the safest way (for the U.S.) to get it done. In a war of attrition the winner just has to stay out of trouble and wait for the enemy to make one mistake.

Three years ago my friend concluded Americans wouldn't bat an eye if we went to war with China.

I think the Americans at the pointy end of the spear might have a little feedback. American corporations might have a few concerns too. None of the fighters want to go to war with China, and it'd ruin American trade.

I think that the Chinese would prefer to win without a war too. I've read that the vast majority of cyber attacks on U.S. military computer networks (as well as civilian) are coming from Chinese IP addresses. Some of those addresses correlate to corporations owned or partly-owned by the Chinese govt. If that's what we're reading in the open press then I suspect that the classified story is even worse.

The best way to "win a war" with China is to persuade them not to fight-- through education & socializing. Spouse (a Reservist) worked the Thai-US exercises COBRA GOLD in 2003-6. She was escorting VIPs (future flag officers & defense ministers) of 10 countries through the Thai command centers. Only one country's personnel, the PLA, were actively collecting intel with cell-phone cameras. They were secretive about their spying but they were persistent enough for the activity to be reported up the chain. The word came back down "Let 'em take all the pictures they want!" Previous Chinese espionage had not been believed by their chain of command so the U.S. was hoping that the cell phone pictures would prove that the U.S. & Thai capabilities weren't just being misunderstood or exaggerated.

A while back the U.S. took advantage of three transiting aircraft carriers near Guam to hold the largest open-ocean exercise in nearly 40 years (since the Vietnam War). As part of that exercise, senior PLA & PLAN officers were invited to ride the carriers for the exercise. Sure, they were escorted and our spies were spying on their spies. It's how you keep up with current events. But the real intent of showing the Chinese an up-close & personal view of American operations was to scare them to peace. They were impressed that the carriers maintained uninterrupted flight ops 24/7 for several days, including at night and during weather. (The PLAN has never demonstrated that capability.) They had a lot of questions about fuel consumption and in-flight refueling. (They don't do much of that.) They were impressed by the sensor net and the number of contacts being managed. (They've never demonstrated that scale of operations either.) But you know what really scared the heck out of the senior officers? Surprised facial expressions and nervous body language? They were shown that the Navy's actual flight ops scheduling and execution wasn't even being done on board-- it was being run by the Air Force out of Hickam in realtime using a variety of comms networks and with aircraft taking off from as far away as Louisiana. The carrier staffs were just there to provide backup. The PLA realized that they couldn't cripple the mission by just shooting down the satellites or taking out the computer networks... as would be quickly done to them. Large-scale EMP would be the only guaranteed way to shut down command & control, and no one wants to go there.

PACOM spends a tremendous chunk of its exercise budget running Pacific Rim exercises & simulations. Many of them involve scenarios of Chinese aggression against Taiwan or Russia or Japan or Vietnam. In every one of them the big effort is figuring out how to add "offramps"-- to stop combat and let the diplomats take over the fighting. No one bothers to run scenarios that invade China, because it's widely expected that such a strategy would also turn nuclear.

Sure, the Olympics are probably still a proxy for aggression & warfare, just as the Greeks started all those centuries ago. But I wouldn't equate the Chinese govt's aggression as public compliance. Patriotism & national pride, no doubt-- but not war-mongering. There's no need to go to war against China and no U.S. veteran in their right mind would want to do so.

Besides, it's not even necessary. After all, some of the bloodiest fighting that China's been involved with in the last 20 years has been right in Tianamen Square. Any U.S.-Chinese confrontation will ideally play out pretty much like the final 10 years of the Cold War. The only American imperialism will be coming from consumers, not soldiers...

[joshuatree]

Re: Hating on China

I guess what irked me most about this meeting was that my counselor was encouraging me to take the 'popular' language this fall. So, there you have it - apparently its 'cool' to learn Chinese right now.

But isn't that always the case? Japanese was the "cool" language to learn in the 80s and 90s. Maybe Indian will be next?

:Unless you have a good argument for communism

Well, any centralized gov't has an advantage in mobilizing and coordinating such as building massive projects. Compared to our rail project, infrastructure projects in China are massive and being done lightning fast. We've been squabbling for decades for rail or no rail. So, one could argue for communism in that aspect.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Hating on China

Wow, Nords. Great post! Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences, and for making the effort to explain things clearly. You have a good writing voice.

I think you've succinctly summarized your military knowledge in these two paragraphs. (But that's better than claiming expertise.) I have some experience and even a little expertise.

Thanks for being kind, even though my post was probably offensive and exasperating to some.

Have you read Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts" or "Hog Pilots"?
...
"Masters of Chaos" is another good summary of the SF life. All are in the state's library system.

Not yet It looks like most of them are waiting on the shelves. I just ran out of books to read, too. Thanks for the recommendations.

My ex-SF friend recommended Andy McNab's "Immediate Action". It seemed like a truthful account. I haven't read any of McNab's newer books.

I like Michael Yon's freelance reporting from Iraq. Great stories and pictures. He's currently getting ready for Afghanistan.

I think you're extrapolating a lot from a few minutes of video footage.

Those of us with little experience extrapolate a lot

it'd be interesting to see how much of that video excitement is surrounded by hours and hours of boredom-- stretching from days to weeks. It's especially frustrating to watch the enemy "getting away with something" while you're doing surveillance, collecting intel, and putting together the plan. No wonder people get a little overwrought

And for every one soldier on a video you hear saying, "We gotta take them out now!", there's three other calm voices double checking and confirming as best they can, with the limited information they have, while under pressure.

I think you'd be impressed by the amount of time the Army, especially the Rangers & SF, spends on "human contact" training.

At first I thought you were using "human contact" as a euphemism

A while back, on one of the local radio shows, they were talking with a young local woman. She mentioned she had served in the Middle East and the DJ was surprised. He asked her if she left the military because of all the violence and killing. She said, "Oh, no. I just couldn't stand being surrounded by all the poverty. It was too depressing for me."

Military folks see more of the real world than most of us. Maybe from just a few perspectives, but it's gotta be better than just TV, movies, and the web.

Packing 100 pounds for miles...

I hear back/spine/knee problems are common for army soldiers. I read the trait of an excellent ground soldier is the ability to endure discomfort. Not as glamorous as Hollywood would like.

But you know what really scared the heck out of the senior officers? Surprised facial expressions and nervous body language? They were shown that the Navy's actual flight ops scheduling and execution wasn't even being done on board-- it was being run by the Air Force out of Hickam in realtime using a variety of comms networks and with aircraft taking off from as far away as Louisiana.

Haha, neat. It's interesting to see what other governments afraid of.

I saw a documentary of an aircraft carrier going through see trials. They were performing evasive maneuvers, turning as tight as they could. It was insane to see the entire flight deck banking 30 degrees.

big effort is figuring out how to add "offramps"-- to stop combat and let the diplomats take over the fighting.

That's good to hear. "Offramp" is a term commonly used in military circles?

The only American imperialism will be coming from consumers, not soldiers...

As in we'll invade and colonize with McDonald forts? :_)