Student Riots In England

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Student Riots In England

You know what amuses and frustrates me? So many people in the middle and lower-middle economic strata who have gone along with the rich in being against health care reform and discontinuing Bush's 2003 tax cuts for the rich. These nitwits will go along with any proposal that goes contrary to what the Obama administration is working towards, even if it means supporting legislation that hurts their own personal wellbeing. Why?

1) They believe the Birther conspiracies and think Obama is a Kenyan.

2) Others believe the FOX news pundits who keep saying Obama is a socialist.

3) And finally, you have those people who are just plain bigots. (These people are out there. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that such folks don't exist. We're only a little over 40 years past Jim Crow laws.)

[anapuni808]

Re: Student Riots In England

wasn't this thread supposed to be about student riots in England?

[Kalalau]

Re: Student Riots In England

The discussion got to this point because of the present political holy grail of cutting taxes for the uber rich. Its supposed to help the society. It doesn't. It means society can't afford to buy things it needs like schools, universities, adequate roads and other infrastructure. Too much emphasis on the private side, not enough on the public, for decades.

Here in Cal we were treated to the great spectacle of billionaire Meg Whitman trying to buy the governorship. One of her ads featured her saying how great life was here in Cal 30 years ago--back when Brown was gov, when the uber rich paid a higher proportion of their income in taxes, when the state could afford to give worthy students seriously great education that enabled them to go on to profitable lives. The snake oil of cutting taxes for the rich has been very attractively marketed, no denying it, but its still the same formula that brought down royalist France and Russia as well as China, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc: everything for the uber rich.

[anapuni808]

Re: Student Riots In England

then maybe you should start a new thread because this one has drifted way off topic

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Student Riots In England

That's the beauty of topic drift, you get more than a tunnel-visioned discussion that usually will soon end, probably unsatisfactorily, and you can always drift right back to the op any ol' time. Sweet, eh?

[Kalalau]

Re: Student Riots In England

Underfunding education is an aspect of the problem of undertaxing the super rich. We are competing with India and China and other loads of other countries that are only too happy to be educating their future, while we & GB are wed to the idea that it is more important to preserve an extra few million dollars for billionaires than to educate future generations, repair bridges, prevent epidemics, etc. It might also be nice to find a cure for cancer along the way, medical research takes money and it takes well trained scientists. Unfortunately it all costs money. Tax the rich, its good for them. It is not inconceivable that some super rich person could even benefit from some public expenditure of funds, like a bridge to get their goods to market, or a cure for cancer some day.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Student Riots In England

The discussion got to this point because of the present political holy grail of cutting taxes for the uber rich. Its supposed to help the society. It doesn't. It means society can't afford to buy things it needs like schools, universities, adequate roads and other infrastructure. Too much emphasis on the private side, not enough on the public, for decades.

Amen.

Anyone who sees the discussion in this thread as drifting fails to grasp the bigger picture of what is going on.

The scenario of the rich and politically powerful, lording it over the mass of middle and lower class is something that has been repeated time and again throughout history. The upper class elite, few in number, have almost always relied on political cronies to preserve their special status and privilege. In the past, nobles have touted their country's monarch as being of divine descent, enabling them to carry on as tyrants over the uneducated peasants. In many third-world countries, votes are openly bought and bribes are accepted as an everyday fact of life.

In the US, the most effective tactic in preserving the status-quo is by dividing-and-conquering the masses. Appeal to their fears and prejudices. A large part of how this is accomplished through propaganda. Leaflets accusing JFK of treason and other high crimes were being passed around in Dallas before that fateful day in 1963. The signs at Tea Party rallies declaring Obama to be socialist and not being American are every bit as incendiary.

What does any of this have to do with fed up students rioting in England? Hopefully, Americans and everyone else around the world will learn a thing or two from their example and saying, Enough is enough!! We're not going to be pacified into accepting the status-quo any more.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Student Riots In England

We're not going to be pacified into accepting the status-quo any more.

Nice sentiment, but yes, the majority of America are most willing to accept the SQ and worse as long as you don't mess much with the things that are important, like their TV habits.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Student Riots In England

Nice sentiment, but yes, the majority of America are most willing to accept the SQ and worse as long as you don't mess much with the things that are important, like their TV habits.

Isn't the feeling of complacency usually one of the signs before a political upheaval takes place?

You're right. It's not as if anything dramatic will happen tomorrow. Or next year. Maybe not in my lifetime. But Kalalau is right. Like anyone else, even Americans have their tipping point.

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: Student Riots In England

Are the riots set to the music of The Clash? What happened to the wave of British bands in current pop music. Maybe tough economic times in England might create some new music bands.

[Kalalau]

Re: Student Riots In England

Actually one reason things have gotten so bad is that culture is now largely controlled by conservatives. For example Clear Channel, San Antonio, Tx, in owning about a third of the radio stations in the country makes the call on what music gets played, and that has a big impact on the culture. You will never hear war protest songs or social justice songs like Woodie Guthrie sang as long as conservatives determine what is played on the air. What the conservative station owners like to program is hundreds hours of Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity etc. conservative talk shows. Even the CC rock station in SD features a blithering fool who drops insults against Democrats and liberals between songs. The intent is clear, to influence the culture. It has worked. As idiotic as the Vietnam War was, the bush wars are even moreso, yet there have been comparatively few demonstrations to end them and no popular political uprising against them. A big reason is conservative control (at least, major influence) on the culture by determining what gets air and what doesn't. In the old USSR the popular music was underground, transmitted person to person by samizdat, home made tapes, I hope that develops here.

[acousticlady]

Re: Student Riots In England

Actually one reason things have gotten so bad is that culture is now largely controlled by conservatives. For example Clear Channel, San Antonio, Tx, in owning about a third of the radio stations in the country makes the call on what music gets played, and that has a big impact on the culture. You will never hear war protest songs or social justice songs like Woodie Guthrie sang as long as conservatives determine what is played on the air. What the conservative station owners like to program is hundreds hours of Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity etc. conservative talk shows. Even the CC rock station in SD features a blithering fool who drops insults against Democrats and liberals between songs. The intent is clear, to influence the culture. It has worked. As idiotic as the Vietnam War was, the bush wars are even moreso, yet there have been comparatively few demonstrations to end them and no popular political uprising against them. A big reason is conservative control (at least, major influence) on the culture by determining what gets air and what doesn't. In the old USSR the popular music was underground, transmitted person to person by samizdat, home made tapes, I hope that develops here.

The radio stations across the country have had control over what they want you to hear since the dawn of radio. And, ummm..... I don't remember Woodie Guthrie or any other "protester" on popular radio back in the day. Seems to me that was all heard underground. In those days, AM was where you heard pop music (so called for a reason). If you wanted to listen to the cool music, you listened to FM late at night - and only late at night. Or on college radio stations. Those that were protesting back in the day were primarily college kids, who eventually grew up to raise the current crop of college kids (who aren't protesting).

I admit to being out of touch with the whole conservative/liberal brew ha-ha, but I AM in touch with what music the 18 - 22 yr old's are making and listening to. The current crop of kids never listen to pop music (horror of all horrors). There is a huge underground movement in music. It is why the music industry has changed so much. If you want "for instances" I will be glad to provide as many as you need.

One of the reasons I think you don't see as many demonstrations against the war(s) any more is that it has been drummed into all our heads that in doing so, we are mistreating the men and women who are over there fighting. How many times have you heard the horror stories of how the guys felt coming back from Vietnam, even when the protests weren't personal attacks. This is not due to any conservative/liberal agenda, but more from guilt over the effects of what their parents did to those who served in Vietnam.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Student Riots In England

As idiotic as the Vietnam War was, the bush wars are even moreso, yet there have been comparatively few demonstrations to end them and no popular political uprising against them. A big reason is conservative control (at least, major influence) on the culture by determining what gets air and what doesn't. In the old USSR the popular music was underground, transmitted person to person by samizdat, home made tapes, I hope that develops here.

One of the reasons I think you don't see as many demonstrations against the war(s) any more is that it has been drummed into all our heads that in doing so, we are mistreating the men and women who are over there fighting. How many times have you heard the horror stories of how the guys felt coming back from Vietnam, even when the protests weren't personal attacks. This is not due to any conservative/liberal agenda, but more from guilt over the effects of what their parents did to those who served in Vietnam.

Interesting theories. But there's one reason, above all others, why the Iraq and Afghanistan War have not generated as many protests as the Vietnam conflict.

Simply put, there's been no military draft in this country since the Vietnam War ended. Period.

I know, it's not the most profound or philosophical explanation in the world. But when you cut right to the chase, the absence of the draft is the single greatest factor behind why there's been fewer protests against the War On Terror vs Vietnam.

If the draft ever gets reinstated while the US is still involved in Afghanistan, then you better believe that you'll start seeing draft card burnings and other forms of protests mushroom.

[Kalalau]

Re: Student Riots In England

OK, how about Where Have All The Flowers Gone, or The Times They Are A Changin', or Masters of War, or Universal Soldier, I could go on. You got a whole generation of kids motivated to ride freedom busses to the South to help Black people achieve equality, you got millions to demonstrate against a meat grinder war. It isn't going to happen again. One of the Dixie Chicks spoke against Mr. bush's idiotic war and voila, banned from the air! How Soviet!

Chimes of Freedom-- Flashing for the warrior whose strength is not to fight, flashing for the refugee on the unarmed road of flight, and for each and every underdog soldier in the night, and we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashin'. A lot of these were seriously great songs, not the bop yo momma garbage on radio today. (There is a whole section in media on why radio is dying, actually its suicide, Soviet style suicide) I even think converting classical music stations to garbage is a deliberate, conscious attempt to dumb down the public, make them easier to manipulate, by denying access to music that improves the mind and giving the masses the gutter instead.

True, stations always selected what to play, but there were literally thousands of owners, there was a whole job category called music director whose job it was to find and introduce new music. Thats all done in focus groups now in a one size fits all operation and as the Dixie Chicks experience shows, political opinion is edited.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Student Riots In England

If the draft ever gets reinstated while the US is still involved in Afghanistan, then you better believe that you'll start seeing draft card burnings and other forms of protests mushroom.

Not if we get another 9-11 hit. And again, many won't care who we bomb/invade as long as we bomb/invade somebody they don't like in retaliation.
Bomb/invade first, ask questions/hear denials/learn the sad/infuriating truths later.

Vietnam didn't hit us, that's one reason for the 60s protests. No raw war/crime footage or US coffins streaming back for us see is another, and the US media was worth a XXXX back then telling the flip side of the 'truth' and helped make a difference. Plus America was in many ways better back then, we cared more about what was good/right and were against lies and corruption a lot more. Ohh, the times they are a'chang'n...