Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Thanks for that quote, Peshkwe - I was unaware of that aspect of his ruling.

All teasing of Sansei aside (you know we are glad to converse and debate with you, Sansei, right?), it's interesting to see the confluence of these two aspects that have been discussed here on HT.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Here's the full 136 page decision if you want to read it for yourself.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35377082/J...-Proposition-8

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

I think you might be referring to the judge in California who ruled against Prop. 8.

You know what I'm still waiting for in this whole debate? For someone to outline for me exactly how allowing someone homosexual to marry is a threat to their own heterosexual marriage.

Thanx for that clarification, Leo!

Your Q is what ultimately turned me from being strongly against ssm to wtf who's it hurting? other than trads that are getting all bus'up over it. And if they want to adopt kids, I'm now for it, since there are so many kids that need a loving home no matter who's it is, and that studies show there generally is no harm, so no foul.

What bugs me is that many gays JUST HAVE to have a drama going on in their lives, this time it's a big push to put a public focus on the ssm issue instead of just being mellow and getting on with life, like most marrieds.
I don't think getting hitched will be the 'be all/end all' that they envision and will soon be surpassed by the inner unhappiness that pervades most of their lives.

[escondido100]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Marriage is not a right but a set of legal obligations imposed because the government has a vested interest in unions that, among other things, have the potential to produce children, which is to say, the future population of the nation.

Gays were on their strongest ground when they said that what they did was nobody else's business. Now they are asserting a right to other people's approval, which is wholly different.

None of us has a right to other people's approval.

But the very best response to those who argue that same-sex marriage is a matter of "rights" is this: You believe a homosexual has the right to marry the partner of his or her choice? Well, we believe a child has the right to start life with a mother and a father.

Let's keep in mind that never having a mom or a dad is not like losing one. While incredibly painful, divorce or death does not deprive a child of one kind of parent like same-sex marriage does. The child of a lesbian couple will never, ever have a father. And little Jane, adopted by Joe and Steve, will never in her life know what it is like to have a mother--never. With legalized same-sex marriage, no adoption agency will be allowed to discriminate in favor of heterosexual parents, meaning many more children will be consigned to that deprivation than are currently. While children who have never known anything different may seem happy with their situation in same-sex households, at some point they will, if vaguely, realize what they have missed. I predict that within 18 years or so of same-sex marriage legalization, we will start seeing lawsuits mounted by children against the state for having been completely deprived of a mother or a father by law.

Even if one were to concede a basic human "right" to marry, that would not change a child's right to begin life with a mother and a father. So what we have then is colliding rights.

How about this for a ground-level societal value: When children's most basic needs, or "rights" if you will, collide with adult rights, society ought to put children's rights first, because they are the most vulnerable members.

But nobody ever says this. Why? Simple. Because children don't vote.

Yet marriage traditionalists should consider using this argument as their One Big Idea, not only because it is true, but because it effectively neutralizes virtually all of the arguments of the same-sex marriage proponents on this issue:

1. That those who would deny same-sex marriage are hateful (no, we don't hate anybody; we love and care about everyone, especially the weakest and most vulnerable among us, that is, children);

2. That those who would deny same-sex marriage are advocating "tyranny of the majority" (no, we are looking out for the powerless, i.e., children);

3. That those who would deny same-sex marriage are violating the separation of church and state (no, the belief that a child deserves to start life with a mother and father is not a religious belief; it is a belief that arises from rational intuition, otherwise known as common sense. Multitudes of secular people hold it.)

4. That those who would deny same-sex marriage are violating the human rights of a whole class of individuals, i.e., homosexuals (what gays are demanding would violate the human rights of a whole class of individuals, i.e., children);

5. That those who would deny same-sex marriage are primarily concerned that their marriages will be at risk (no, we are primarily concerned that children will be disadvantaged);

6. That those who would deny same-sex marriage don't care about the feelings of homosexuals (we care a great deal about their feelings. But we care more about the needs of children than the feelings of adults);

7. That those who would deny same-sex marriage can't stand to see gays living in joy and life-long commitment with their partners (we are happy to see gays live in joy and life-long commitment to whomever they please; just don't ask the state to call it marriage, because doing so would greatly increase the numbers of children whose basic human right to a mother and a father will be denied).

Of course, the other side will argue that it doesn't matter if a child has two mommies or a mommy and a daddy, as long as he or she is loved. While some have tried, we don't have to engage that argument. That is an argument we will never win among people who are convinced otherwise, but those are the hard core of the same-sex marriage movement. All we need to do is assure voters in the sensible middle that their very own common sense is true: children need a mom and a dad. And that the least we as a society can do is ensure that that's how they begin their lives.

One might fairly ask: what about the legality, say, of artificial insemination for singles? It, too, ensures a child will begin life without one type of parent. Well, we can take a page from the gay rights movement: one step at a time, my friends. Who's to say radical and destructive "progress" can't be reversed?

So, let's take on a new slogan for the marriage fights ahead--and there will be many: "Children's Rights Trump Gay Rights." Or, if you please, "Children's Needs Trump Adult Wishes." It may not be all that catchy, but I believe it is the most accurate and effective argument we could make. It would also be the most compassionate.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Let's keep in mind that never having a mom or a dad is not like losing one. While incredibly painful, divorce or death does not deprive a child of one kind of parent like same-sex marriage does. The child of a lesbian couple will never, ever have a father. And little Jane, adopted by Joe and Steve, will never in her life know what it is like to have a mother--never. While children who have never known anything different may seem happy with their situation in same-sex households, at some point they will, if vaguely, realize what they have missed.

Two parents - way over-rated.

I grew up a single child with only my Mom as parent, and boy, was I lucky! I'd have been a much different person with a dad in the way and I made sure that was never to happen, not even a potential boyfriend had a chance...
I knew early on the good, the bad, and the ugly, that I was missing, and there wasn't all that much good to miss.
However, had I been raised solely by my 'Dad', I'll bet there's a good chance I'd have wished for a mom, as I didn't get along well with restrictions and rules much.

[Peshkwe]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Wow escondido100...

You know with that ideology all the kids of all them dead soldiers are gonna go gay or be mentally disturbed simply because they don't have a mom or dad around.....right....

Whatcha gonna do take the kids away from the single parents? Put em in foster care?

It's junk ideology based on fear and religious bogeymen...and the fact the down and out always need someone to look down on and believe they're at least better than "THOSE people.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Well, we believe a child has the right to start life with a mother and a father.

Are you, and the rest of this "we" group, willing to put concerted legal efforts into making divorce more difficult to obtain in the cases of families with children, rather than preventing loving couples from marrying?

Please tell us what you are currently doing to accomplish this goal.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Oh, and escondido100? It's not nice to take a huge quote of someone else's writings and repost them without giving credit, leading people to believe you assembled those thoughts yourself.

I think you need to apologize to us for doing so, and to Seventh-day Adventist and author of The C.S. Lewis Index: A Comprehensive Guide to Lewis's Writings and Ideas Janine Goffar for plagiarizing her writing. Or did you miss this at the bottom of the article?: © 2010 Adventist Today

[matapule]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

there are so many kids that need a loving home

Exactly

no matter who it is, and that studies show there generally is no harm, so no foul.

Not really. Some hetero couples make good parents, some don't. Some homo couples make good parents, some don't. It has nothing to do with sexual orrientation. It has to do with good parenting skills.

Marriage is not a right but a set of legal obligations imposed because the government has a vested interest in unions that, among other things, have the potential to produce children, which is to say, the future population of the nation.

So you are saying that infertile heterosexual couples should not be allowed to marry? Now THAT is far out!

[surlygirly]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

So you are saying that infertile heterosexual couples should not be allowed to marry? Now THAT is far out!

You know, a lot of my peers are having infertility issues. No one is sure why. Perhaps everyone needs to spend time on this problem instead of claiming the only reason for marriage is for reproduction. If that's true, then I may as well go jump off the Makapu'u Lighthouse. From this to my college biology prof telling us that those who don't reproduce are biological failures...wow.

[matapule]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

my college biology prof telling us that those who don't reproduce are biological failures...wow.

Ah SG, we all know that reasoning is tu'umama'o, so don't dwell on it. I have two daughters that haven't reproduced by choice. Too bad, because they both would have made excellent parents.

SG, would you be interested in adopting at sometime in the future? It's called surrogate reproduction!

[surlygirly]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Ah SG, we all know that reasoning is tu'umama'o...

Would you be interested in adopting at sometime in the future? It's called surrogate reproduction!

Thanks! You always give me the best words, and each is a wonderful treasure hunt. So fun!

Yes. We are just about to start the process, actually. So everybody cross your fingers and hopefully in two years or so... Thanks for your support!

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Yes. We are just about to start the process, actually. So everybody cross your fingers and hopefully in two years or so... Thanks for your support!

Really? That's wonderful news - may the process be as smooth and successful as possible.

[Adri]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

Yes, best of luck surlygirl!

[Kaonohi]

Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

my college biology prof telling us that those who don't reproduce are biological failures...wow.

Don't worry about passing on your genes, just make sure to pass on your values.