How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi people,

I found it.
"Life Without the Possibility of Parole" (LWOP) here in Hawaii actually means 20 years without the possibility of parole:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur..._0706-0606.HTM

I had a personal friend who was serving LWOP here in Hawaii, who was released from incarceration even before the 20 years. While I know he has family living in the State, I will not post his name, but I am willing to give you his name, the victim's name, and the presiding judge via personal message.

In spite of costs, I could go along with LWOP instead of death IF LWOP here in Hawaii had a definitive and actual meaning of its wording.

Let's reinstate capital punishment here in Hawaii. Once capital punishment was abolished, our lawmakers effectively abolished LWOP.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

The point of bringing up past incidents of mass discrimination is that if the people and if the justice system can be goofy enough to do something like mass deportations, or the Japanese internment, and others, how can you trust it with the power of death? Its much safer to keep that power out of Big Government's hands rather than just sit around and wait for some nut case to come to power and start something horrible. History...mass murder was carried out against the Native Americans, those blankets infected with smallpox passed out among the Indians, not good. If it happened once, it could happen again. You need to know history to know what we are capable of. We need to move way past mass murder not just because its right but for our own individual safety, and while you can never be completely 100 % sure something like the Holocaust can be prevented from happening here, the longer you keep the power of death out of Big Government's hands the better your chances.

Hi Kalalau,
Going by the same logic, how can we trust our penal system with incarceration? Or how can we trust our penal system with a fine?

If we are to worry about putting an innocent to death after a trial and conviction with the rules that he must be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then we should also worry about sentencing a felon to time in prison, or to give him a fine. Why have a penal system if we are so afraid?
Nobu

[LikaNui]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

I backed my statement with a source. You now stand corrected.

No I don't, because my post was merely agreeing IN GENERAL with what Leo wrote and it had nothing whatsoever to do with you. Re-read my post.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

No I don't, because my post was merely agreeing IN GENERAL with what Leo wrote and it had nothing whatsoever to do with you. Re-read my post.

OK, that is settled. You agree with Leo, and I backed my statement with a source on it and an explanation that anyone running for president of the United States has his problems magnified. Now we can go back to the topic. Hopefully, we can avoid drifting off the topic from now.

I really don't think we will ever see capital punishment here in Hawaii ever again, but I would bet that the majority of the people actually favor it.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You can release an innocent from prison. You can give him monetary compensation. You cannot revive the dead. The issue of Big Government getting carried away with killing people is serious. If the entire system can fail so miserably as to produce something as evil as the Japanese Internment or mass deportations of Mexicans or passing out smallpox infected blankets to native Americans there is definitely strong precedent of abuse of power. You do not want the authorities having the power to round up and kill people. It has happened all over the world, to some extent it has even happened here. Its too much power to trust Big Government with. The record is clear. This is definitely an area where government power needs to be limited.

[bjd392]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

First of all, the death penalty is used to punish individual criminals who have been lawfully tried and convicted of their crimes. This notion that Big Government is going to go out and cause mass killings is still absurd. Based on how long prisoners on death row sit around and wait, it appears there's no hurry for government to carry out sentencing.

Back in the naive days of the 1940s and 50s when World Wars had distinct enemies, the reaction to Japan's bombing was to fear the Japanese, and round them up.

Fast forward to 2001 when accused Islamic extremists cause 9/11. There isn't a nation-wide roundup of thousands of Muslims in America, if one was to make similar comparisons to the Japanese. Frankly, I don't think Big Government is doing enough to seek out internal moles that hope to disrupt our way of life.

America has learned and got smarter from past mistakes, but in trying to alleviate or correct them, it is opening itself up to make more dumber mistakes... mistakes of neglect, not errors of over-reaction.

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

What non-death crimes should the death penalty cover? You drive the getaway car in a felony that results in murder you can get the death penalty already under the felony murder rule even though you never directly killed anybody. Say you recruit terrorists, and they kill people, how about that? What if your part is only in passing out recruitment literature? Or if your part is writing a political column, or a religious column, protected under the 1st Amendment? What about (sorry about this) raping but not killing a child, say you ruin the child's entire life, but the child is not killed, even with minimum physical injury? What about the truly insane? What about mercy killings, the nurses who terminate hopeless suffering. What about people like Dr. Kevorkian who tell people how to kill themselves? What about war criminals? What if some future court judges bush and Cheney guilty of war crimes for Iraq, should they be subject to the death penalty? What about being the losing side in a revolution? Or an election? What if some towns adopt Sharia (sorry about the spelling) Law and the law requires killing adulteresses and gays? Its all very clear if we are just talking about cases that directly cause a death, but as you can see from the felony murder rule, which is already used to execute people who never directly killed anybody, execution can hit a lot of people (miserable criminals to be sure) who never actually killed anyone. What about people who sell drugs to children, including children who sell? And what drugs? Heroin, meth, how about pot, how about mommy's prescription drugs? Say Yes to all of these and you might want to look for a deal on some used German gas chambers.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

You can release an innocent from prison. You can give him monetary compensation. You cannot revive the dead. The issue of Big Government getting carried away with killing people is serious. If the entire system can fail so miserably as to produce something as evil as the Japanese Internment or mass deportations of Mexicans or passing out smallpox infected blankets to native Americans there is definitely strong precedent of abuse of power. You do not want the authorities having the power to round up and kill people. It has happened all over the world, to some extent it has even happened here. Its too much power to trust Big Government with. The record is clear. This is definitely an area where government power needs to be limited.

Hi Kalalau,
Sure, you can release a wrongfully convicted person and "compensate" him for the wrongful punishment, but you cannot take away the punishment. No money can replace the years that you take from someone by incarcerating him, just as you cannot give him back his life after you kill him.

To put a criminal on trial, find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, sentence him to death for the heinous crime he committed, and execute him, is the power of the courts, and the jury consists of twelve people of the peers of the accused. Huge difference here. The government has the power to commute his sentence, but it does NOT have the power to order his execution.
Nobu

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

First of all, the death penalty is used to punish individual criminals who have been lawfully tried and convicted of their crimes. This notion that Big Government is going to go out and cause mass killings is still absurd. Based on how long prisoners on death row sit around and wait, it appears there's no hurry for government to carry out sentencing.

Back in the naive days of the 1940s and 50s when World Wars had distinct enemies, the reaction to Japan's bombing was to fear the Japanese, and round them up.

Fast forward to 2001 when accused Islamic extremists cause 9/11. There isn't a nation-wide roundup of thousands of Muslims in America, if one was to make similar comparisons to the Japanese. Frankly, I don't think Big Government is doing enough to seek out internal moles that hope to disrupt our way of life.

America has learned and got smarter from past mistakes, but in trying to alleviate or correct them, it is opening itself up to make more dumber mistakes... mistakes of neglect, not errors of over-reaction.

Correct. I agree 100%.
We really cannot compare the courts, putting a felon on trial, finding him guilty beyond a resonable doubt of a heinous murder, and sentencing him to death with a government that kills its innocent citizens.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

What non-death crimes should the death penalty cover? You drive the getaway car in a felony that results in murder you can get the death penalty already under the felony murder rule even though you never directly killed anybody. Say you recruit terrorists, and they kill people, how about that? What if your part is only in passing out recruitment literature? Or if your part is writing a political column, or a religious column, protected under the 1st Amendment? What about (sorry about this) raping but not killing a child, say you ruin the child's entire life, but the child is not killed, even with minimum physical injury? What about the truly insane? What about mercy killings, the nurses who terminate hopeless suffering. What about people like Dr. Kevorkian who tell people how to kill themselves? What about war criminals? What if some future court judges bush and Cheney guilty of war crimes for Iraq, should they be subject to the death penalty? What about being the losing side in a revolution? Or an election? What if some towns adopt Sharia (sorry about the spelling) Law and the law requires killing adulteresses and gays? Its all very clear if we are just talking about cases that directly cause a death, but as you can see from the felony murder rule, which is already used to execute people who never directly killed anybody, execution can hit a lot of people (miserable criminals to be sure) who never actually killed anyone. What about people who sell drugs to children, including children who sell? And what drugs? Heroin, meth, how about pot, how about mommy's prescription drugs? Say Yes to all of these and you might want to look for a deal on some used German gas chambers.

Hi Kalalau,
First of all, I am in favor of using capital punishment for child rape and attempted murder in certain cases. Each case should be looked at individually, as no two crimes are exactly the same.

Second of all. I favor the option of capital punishment for the non-triggerman or the "wheel man" in a capital crime, again depending on the circumstances and severety of the crime.

Third of all, I favor capital punishment for juvenile offenders, who commit capital crimes again depending on the circumstances of the crime. Again, each case should be considered individually.

Fourth of all, I favor capital punishment for sales and/or distribution of drugs, depending on the circumstances of the resunts of those sales. If it can be proven that the sale or distribution of the drug directly caused a person to commit suicide or murder, that I think it should qualify to be capital punishment applicable.

As far as our government or any government committing a crime? I am in favor of application of capital punishment for that also. However, if you take Bush or Cheney? How about Harry S. Truman? OR, how about Bill Clinton? Or Ronald Reagan? Again, it depends on the circumstances, and your, or my opinion on whether or not they committed capital crimes would be up to the courts, correct?
Nobu

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

As I understand it, crack and powdered cocaine are chemically the same. Yet sentences for crack run into the decades, crack is the form the drug is marketed in in Black areas, while high fashion Whites take the powdered form and if caught get sentences in the area of a few months. If similar racism worked in death penalty cases you would have a lot more minorities on death row for the same crime. Oh wait, we do.

Another hypothetical. Suppose you own a factory that pumps out toxics into the air and water and it is a demonstrated scientific fact that thousands of people get sick and die or give birth to children with birth defects. Death penalty for that? The executives, the technicians? The stockholders? How about the lawyers who fought to keep the company polluting? How about politicians who made such mass poisoning legal? Its so clear cut if the defendant shoots somebody while robbing a liquor store, but it gets a little blurry when you are talking about a duly elected politician whose actions might have directly caused thousands of deaths, or a board of directors.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Kalalau,
If you are discriminated against when you commit a crime because of your race or ethnic, all the more reason to be law abiding.

So, if they kill you if you commit murder because your skin color is different, and let people of another skin color get off with the same crime for less punishment, it is best not to commit murder.

What you must remember, is a conviction and punishment is always the result of of the crime, and it is never the other way around. So, to avoid being discriminated against by the penal system, it is best to stay law abiding. I have been on the short end of discrimination before, and as I see it, if I am being punished more for a crime that I commit, I would still be a victim of my own actions.

Best, would be no crime, and hence, no punishment. So, if there are inequities when it comes to punishment, the person on the short end should not have committed the crime in the first place.
Nobu

[Kalalau]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

But I just got thru bringing up the LAPD being exposed for over a century of race bias. Were you alive during the Watts Riots or the Rodney King riots? The LAPD and the justice system got away with racism but only stirred a cauldron of hate. People knew by the hundreds of thousands that they were being screwed and eventually it blew like a volcano. Both riots did billions of dollars of damage to the city that employed the cops that caused the riots. I came to finally understand the OJ Simpson verdict as a political statement, and a very good one, by a jury of Black people saying, "Fine, you can let off the white cops who beat the crap out of Rodney King, and we can let off this murderer. If you want a biased system, we can play that game too." You could be doing nothing wrong at all other than being Black or Hispanic and get punished big time. It is possible the LAPD was the only brutal racist PD in the country but I wouldn't bet on it.

[D'Alani]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

Hi Kalalau,
If you are discriminated against when you commit a crime because of your race or ethnic, all the more reason to be law abiding.

So, if they kill you if you commit murder because your skin color is different, and let people of another skin color get off with the same crime for less punishment, it is best not to commit murder.

What you must remember, is a conviction and punishment is always the result of of the crime, and it is never the other way around. So, to avoid being discriminated against by the penal system, it is best to stay law abiding. I have been on the short end of discrimination before, and as I see it, if I am being punished more for a crime that I commit, I would still be a victim of my own actions.

Best, would be no crime, and hence, no punishment. So, if there are inequities when it comes to punishment, the person on the short end should not have committed the crime in the first place.
Nobu

Nobu are you and Sansei one and the same?...just asking.

[Nobunaga]

Re: How about reinstating capital punishment in Hawaii?

But I just got thru bringing up the LAPD being exposed for over a century of race bias. Were you alive during the Watts Riots or the Rodney King riots? The LAPD and the justice system got away with racism but only stirred a cauldron of hate. People knew by the hundreds of thousands that they were being screwed and eventually it blew like a volcano. Both riots did billions of dollars of damage to the city that employed the cops that caused the riots. I came to finally understand the OJ Simpson verdict as a political statement, and a very good one, by a jury of Black people saying, "Fine, you can let off the white cops who beat the crap out of Rodney King, and we can let off this murderer. If you want a biased system, we can play that game too." You could be doing nothing wrong at all other than being Black or Hispanic and get punished big time. It is possible the LAPD was the only brutal racist PD in the country but I wouldn't bet on it.

Hi Kalalau,
Nobody who is sane ever said that this world was fair. This country is so far from it, even educated people will use racial or ethnic slurs. Remember what Senator Dan Inouye was called during the Watergate Investigation by John Erlichman's lawyer?

Still, in spite of all, it is best to stay law abiding. If you are going to face racial or ethnic discrimination if you commit a crime, that is all the more reason to stay law abiding.

And, yes, I am old enough to remember the Watts uprising, and the Rodney King incident. Regardless of discrimination of any kind, people who break the laws should be punished. And if a person who breaks the law is punished more severely than another person who breaks the law because of his ethnic or skin color, he still deserves what he gets for breaking the laws. It only means that someone, who is not discriminated against is not getting punished as severely. It isn't fair, but the murderer always gets a better deal than his victim.
Nobu