Statehood Day Holiday

[timkona]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

After sleeping on it all weekend, and dreaming about it some, I have come to the conclusion that I "could" be convinced to get behind the sovereignty issue, if, and only if, all racial separatism was removed from the essence of the idea.

I would also need to see the "Big Book" with all the plans inside for running a society. I don't know if the SovMov has taken the time to write that blueprint yet, but it should be at least 30,000 pages, such that it covers all aspects of society, from taxation to policing to defense to everything.

It's good to be open minded.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

After sleeping on it all weekend, and dreaming about it some, I have come to the conclusion that I "could" be convinced to get behind the sovereignty issue, if, and only if, all racial separatism was removed from the essence of the idea.

I would also need to see the "Big Book" with all the plans inside for running a society. I don't know if the SovMov has taken the time to write that blueprint yet, but it should be at least 30,000 pages, such that it covers all aspects of society, from taxation to policing to defense to everything.

It's good to be open minded.

Good on you, Tim.

The best way to draw up a blueprint is to see how other places of similar demographics do it, and learn from their strengths and weaknesses. For me, I look at other island economies across the globe, because 1)there are some interesting trends to be found and 2)their biggest issues facing them in this y2k aga aren't so different from ours.

Here is the wikipedia entry on island nations, and while it is a brief article, there are some links below with lists for island nations, islands by country, as well as a list of countries.

As for the native and ethnic issues, I struggle with this one, because there doesn't exist a single model on the planet of a nation devoid of ethnic disparity. Even my best case scenario, that which mimics isles such as Bermuda and many Pacific countries, where land ownership is based on being born in that country, one can argue that such decisions wreak havoc on the migrant population.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I agree with the notion of studying other models (no sense reinventing the wheel), but I think the visionaries crafting the new government have to take it one step further and create something that is slightly different.

Since Hawai'i is coming at it from the "back end" (i.e., reverting back rather than starting), the visionaries seriously need to consider the political and economic ramifications this new nation would have on those whose ancestors might not have claim to be indigenous, but who nonetheless made significant contributions to Hawai'i pre-1900.

Other questions like dual citizenship (US and Hawaiian) for those born in Hawai'i who cannot claim kanaka maoli lineage, how will the 'aina be defended against aggressors (a military presence), would Hawai'i create its own monetary system and what would back it (surely not US dollars! )...so much to learn and do!

Miulang

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

After sleeping on it all weekend, and dreaming about it some, I have come to the conclusion that I "could" be convinced to get behind the sovereignty issue, if, and only if, all racial separatism was removed from the essence of the idea.

I would also need to see the "Big Book" with all the plans inside for running a society. I don't know if the SovMov has taken the time to write that blueprint yet, but it should be at least 30,000 pages, such that it covers all aspects of society, from taxation to policing to defense to everything.

It's good to be open minded.

I think any sovereignty organization would do well to solicit the opinions of people like yourself, Tim, when working on said plans. If they can, to some degree, address the concerns and issues of people who are NOT necessarily in agreement with their goals, their chances of success are likely to increase.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I agree with the notion of studying other models (no sense reinventing the wheel), but I think the visionaries crafting the new government have to take it one step further and create something that is slightly different.

Since Hawai'i is coming at it from the "back end" (i.e., reverting back rather than starting), the visionaries seriously need to consider the political and economic ramifications this new nation would have on those whose ancestors might not have claim to be indigenous, but who nonetheless made significant contributions to Hawai'i pre-1900.

Other questions like dual citizenship (US and Hawaiian) for those born in Hawai'i who cannot claim kanaka maoli lineage, how will the 'aina be defended against aggressors (a military presence), would Hawai'i create its own monetary system and what would back it (surely not US dollars! )...so much to learn and do!

Miulang

The "back end" concern is largely erroneous. With a referendum, we vote all the way for change:

-do we keep dual citizenships? We vote on that.
-do we negotiate with the US to allow them to station their bases here? We vote on that. If so, we can collect rent for it, like they do in Okinawa, the P.I. and other places throughout the world. And instead of the US conveniently condemning land that they poison, we can be compensated for it or compel them to clean it, like they do elsewhere in the world, e.g. Micronesia.

[Miulang]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

The "back end" concern is largely erroneous. With a referendum, we vote all the way for change:

-do we keep dual citizenships? We vote on that.
-do we negotiate with the US to allow them to station their bases here? We vote on that. If so, we can collect rent for it, like they do in Okinawa, the P.I. and other places throughout the world. And instead of the US conveniently condemning land that they poison, we can be compensated for it or compel them to clean it, like they do elsewhere in the world, e.g. Micronesia.

Does that mean in the referendum that all this needs to be in place first (e.g., voting on the Constitution, which could include all of this) or would the first referendum be on whether to proceed with the development of the new nation? If it's the former, then I think that vote won't come for years.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Until the "Big Book" is finished, including answers to all of the above questions, then any talk of sovereignty is whistling in the wind.

Critics will ask questions. The answers to the questions must be available by page, chapter, and verse. EVERY QUESTION must be in there.

It's a huge undertaking of literary achievement to even try to write the "Big Book". Think of Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS). Many volumes. Think of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Many more volumes covering everything from driving a ship to applying for citizenship.

Sovereignty is a goal that will require a tremendous amount of "paper" footwork and preparation and planning. All the time spent protesting ANYTHING would be better spent in front of a computer writing, writing, writing. Gonna take a dozen lawyers and several editors to make it decent.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

hypocrasy

Yes, I know, it's spelled "hypocrisy," with an "i" - the fingers ignored the cranial commands...twice.

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

The Kingdom of Hawaii had a code of laws from 1843 forward - what do you think the Hawaii Revised Statutes have been based on for lo, the past 113 years? Why would those need any more than a little tweaking here & there? The legislature does that every year anyway. Writing a new "Big Book" as you call it would be like trying to re-invent the wheel. A waste of valuable time.

Why do so many folks think that all the infrastructure in place now will just "poof", disappear, with a Nation? Only the name(s) will be changed.................Do you really think that all these nice government buildings standing around will just be torn down? That would really be a dumb move now wouldn't it? It just would no longer be called the "Federal" building or the "State" Capitol building.

Try to think outside the box just a little more............and get creative..............what would YOU like to see change? Instead of contantly criticizing or ridiculing - why not make some intelligent contributions?

Until the "Big Book" is finished, including answers to all of the above questions, then any talk of sovereignty is whistling in the wind.

Critics will ask questions. The answers to the questions must be available by page, chapter, and verse. EVERY QUESTION must be in there.

It's a huge undertaking of literary achievement to even try to write the "Big Book". Think of Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS). Many volumes. Think of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Many more volumes covering everything from driving a ship to applying for citizenship.

Sovereignty is a goal that will require a tremendous amount of "paper" footwork and preparation and planning. All the time spent protesting ANYTHING would be better spent in front of a computer writing, writing, writing. Gonna take a dozen lawyers and several editors to make it decent.

[Bard]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Personally I find the idea of a country of Hawai'i kinda cool. I can see some causes for concern though. It's like that great Rumsfeld quote everyone likes to make fun of.. you've got your known knowns, your known unknowns, and your unknown unknowns, the things you don't know that you don't know. It seems like the latter are going to be the problem because everyone's used to have those ties to the US. What's going to change? Does the state rely on federal highway/road subsidies? How about kick-backs from federal tax programs? Will there be trade tariffs that cause the cost and availability of things to get sketchy? What delicate balances in the economy will be upset by such a move? How are potential energy shortages due to peak oil going to affect things?

Heck, Hawai'i has the potential to become a major energy exporter if the scientists ever get that hydrogen fuel cell stuff worked out -- tidal, wind, solar, geothermal...

I can see lots of good that could come out of it, but lots of potential pitfalls too. Looking forward to the ongoing developments! Interesting times with lots of room for optimism.

Oh and IMO the comparisons to mainland separatist movements are a bit disingenuous -- no one's picking up arms over it at this time. Happy to tell you all about the "Texas sovereignty movements" that have made that mistake.

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Bard - that is a very constructive point.

As for Texas: the main difference is that Texas applied for statehood, Hawaii did not. Also, the "Republic of Texas" did not have international recognition as an independent, nation state under international law. The Kingdom of Hawaii had that recognition through international treaties which conformed with international law. They had ambassadors, consulates, embassies all over the world. Texas did not (to the best of my knowledge). Also, Texas could be legally annexed since its territory was within the continental boundaries of the US. Hawaii, 2500 miles away across the water did not qualify for annexation based on the Constitution at that time (to the best of my knowledge). Acquiring Hawaii required a Treaty of Annexation - big difference from Texas or even from the Indian Nations, all of which lie within US continental boundaries. No treaty was ever passed by the US Congress.

[Konaguy]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyway.

Yes, the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii by the US was illegal act. I'm sure no one will dispute that fact. But, to me there is very little that can be done to reverse it. In short it seems, rightfully or wrongfully people can't
let go the past, when we should be looking at the future.

As a longtime kama'aina, I'm deeply concerned by all the problems facing Hawaii.In my opinion, the future of Hawaii is very bleak unless major changes are made.No, I'm not advocating an independent Hawaii. I think it would be a major mistake if that ever did transpire. But what I'm advocating is the need for major wholesale changes on the way this state is run. In other words, if we continue to pave over paradise, there won't be any paradise for our children and grandchildren.

[TuNnL]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Konaguy - basically you’re stating an opinion that many share. It has little or nothing to do with the topic of this thread which is Admissions Day (now renamed Statehood Day) and how the celebration of that event affects the diverse group of people living in Hawai‘i.

Many went off track here, but most of these posts can be traced to the motivations of those who side with the Slomites and those who side with the native Hawaiian activists. Your post, I think can honestly be branded 100 percent off topic.

[timkona]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Anapuni....I agree the mission could be completed with lots of cut & paste.

[anapuni808]

Re: Statehood Day Holiday

Then how do we change the name of the thread since you seem to be concerned with straying postings? and do you have a suggestion for a new name? I'm sure Admin can help us out.

This has become a very interesting conversation and it seems that the "Slom-ites" as you call them have mostly fallen by the wayside. or else are choosing to stop being trolls and just lurk for a while. A few of us are trying to provide information, facts, history - it's called education and we can all use some.

If you have something constructive to add - please do jump in!