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  • #16
    Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

    Okay Miulang, point taken. I guess ownership is not the crux of the issue. But dwelling size and number of dwellings per acre are both essential to the notion of affordability, be it rentals or purchases.

    The only way to mitigate outrageous land cost is to increase density ratios.
    The only way to conform to modern sewage requirements is to build in areas already serviced by piping infrastructures, and then increase capacity at existing sewage facilities.
    Higher densities are the only way that public transit becomes viable.

    To a family without a roof, a 500 sf apartment with small bedroom, small kitchen, and small living area would be a helluva lot better than a sandy sleeping bag in a tent with a coleman stove and a portapotty.

    Just because YOU would not live in such small quarters does not mean they are inherently bad. We must have dwelling choices that fulfill the entire spectrum of need, dispersed as a percentage along basic income realities. Dwelling choices must be brought to the marketplace using the least amount of government financial assistance as possible. But it is also important that government not place impediments to affordability at every turn on the road to development. (This latter notion is sometimes referred to as the Politics of NO)

    And let's be honest. Urban Sprawl on Maui is the direct result of building height restrictions that result in subdivision mentalities. This promotes dependence upon automobiles, which promotes congestion and pollution. Any true environmentalist knows that overpasses, taller buildings, and smaller dwelling unit size are good for the environment, and the only way to preserve Ag/Open space.

    Based on commentary by Miulang and SK, I am starting to come to the conclusion that liberal philosophy is basically uncaring toward the plight of those least able to fend for themselves in our society. Breaks my heart.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

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    • #17
      Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

      Originally posted by timkona View Post
      The only way to mitigate outrageous land cost is to increase density ratios.
      I'm not convinced this is the only way. Here when land becomes outrageously valuable we build high density housing. High density housing built while property is affordable are known as "projects". I do like you're idea about mixed sized dwellings.
      “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
      http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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      • #18
        Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

        Originally posted by timkona View Post
        The only way to mitigate outrageous land cost is to increase density ratios.
        The only way to conform to modern sewage requirements is to build in areas already serviced by piping infrastructures, and then increase capacity at existing sewage facilities.
        OK, let's discuss this point, TK. Where are there sewer systems on the Big Island? Probably only in Hilo and Kona. So you're advocating more population density in Hilo and Kona. That's fine with me. But for places like Kea'au and Paauilo, which have septic systems, how do they plan for dense growth? How much would it cost each homeowner or developer to hook up to a sewer system? How much would it cost for sidewalks and all the other amenities that go along with a city/town center? Would it add $10k per household? $20k? More? Would current homeowners like Craig be willing to pay for that improvement?

        Miulang
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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        • #19
          Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

          "Projects" serve a dwelling function in our society. They got a bad rep for many of the same reasons why the people who live there are there.

          Many homeless would be thankful to live in a project.

          I'm not convinced this is the only way.
          Please tell us what the alternatives are.

          Miulang, higher pop densities in Hilo and Kona would lessen the need to develop outside of town, which reduces the need for road infrastructure, and auto pollution.
          FutureNewsNetwork.com
          Energy answers are already here.

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          • #20
            Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

            Originally posted by timkona View Post
            "Projects" serve a dwelling function in our society. They got a bad rep for many of the same reasons why the people who live there are there.

            Many homeless would be thankful to live in a project.
            .

            On another thread somewhere (too lazy to look), I brought up the case study of Cabrini Green in Chicago, which even today is referred to as the worst example of a public housing project gone wrong. It crammed together something like 20,000 people into multiple high rise concrete block buildings. It also didn't work as a social experiment. What the public housing people in Chicago are doing is tearing down all the "projects" and building mixed income housing so middle income folks are living among poorer folks. While the plans are attractive, I think it's a little early to determine whether or not this experiment will succeed.

            Miulang
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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            • #21
              Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

              Originally posted by Miulang View Post
              On another thread somewhere (too lazy to look), I brought up the case study of Cabrini Green in Chicago, which even today is referred to as the worst example of a public housing project gone wrong.
              At your service...your first mention in the thread was here.

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              • #22
                Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                It's not mixed income that is the issue.

                It is mixed dwelling sizes and mixed uses within the same building.

                A building with 200 sf rabbit hutches on floor 2 and 3000 sf penthouses on floor 6 would naturally attract mixed income residents.

                Mixed use is an idea NOT incorporated into Cabrini Greens.
                FutureNewsNetwork.com
                Energy answers are already here.

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                • #23
                  Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                  A moratorium on rezoning will allow time to develop a comprehensive plan to insure that future development has the concurrency of infrastructure. We've had too many rezonings that have resulted in more and more development without looking at the big picture of what additional unplanned growth is doing to Hawaii Island. Plan first, then afterwards allow for rezoning. This is not saying that higher density should not be part considered during the planning. It is saying to pull it together now because undoing building/planning mistakes are near impossible.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                    Originally posted by timkona View Post
                    "Projects" serve a dwelling function in our society. They got a bad rep for many of the same reasons why the people who live there are there.
                    And why wouldn't that be the case this time?

                    Many homeless would be thankful to live in a project.
                    No doubt. People dying of thirst will drink seawater.

                    I'm not convinced this is the only way.
                    Please tell us what the alternatives are.
                    Restrict non-resident/non-owner occupied real estate ownership or tax the hell out of it.
                    “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                    http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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                    • #25
                      Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                      The most ridiculous excuse I've read about not having any concurrency, is Chris Yuen (Hawaii County planning director) is afraid that mechanisms like that would increase the cost of housing here. To me that is lamest excuse to not do concurrency. In short, there is no free lunch.Either you have poor infrastructure or better infrastructure, but more expensive housing.
                      Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                      The Kona Blog

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                      • #26
                        Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                        PLEASE STOP USING THE WORD HOUSING

                        The word you should be using is DWELLING.

                        Housing implies houses. If we continue to build houses, we will inevitably turn into Orange County.
                        FutureNewsNetwork.com
                        Energy answers are already here.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                          Originally posted by timkona View Post
                          PLEASE STOP USING THE WORD HOUSING
                          The word you should be using is DWELLING.Housing implies houses.
                          Housing is a completely acceptible term to use. Definition:
                          a. Buildings or other shelters in which people live
                          b. A place to live; a dwelling

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                          • #28
                            Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                            Originally posted by timkona View Post
                            We don't need more land rezoned to Res. We need more land rezoned to CV, and other high density, mixed uses.
                            OK, let me re-state the question. Has all the CV zoned property been developed? Is the problem the lack of CV zoned land or the lack of development on existing CV land?

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                            • #29
                              Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                              Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                              I'm not convinced this is the only way.
                              Restrict non-resident/non-owner occupied real estate ownership or tax the hell out of it.
                              Ah, blame the greedy landlords. As classic as a cornball old-time play. The first suggestion would limit the number of rentals available to people who can't buy. In the second case the costs would be passed to the renters. I doubt if it would depress the selling prices that much. It most certainly won't help the folks who are currently sleeping on the beach.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

                                Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                                Ah, blame the greedy landlords. As classic as a cornball old-time play. The first suggestion would limit the number of rentals available to people who can't buy. In the second case the costs would be passed to the renters. I doubt if it would depress the selling prices that much. It most certainly won't help the folks who are currently sleeping on the beach.
                                No one with real estate investments is going to invite people off the beach as long as there are others with better credit to deal with. Restricting home(dwelling, sheesh) ownership to at least near full-time residents would depress selling prices unless I'm missing something. How would that limit rentals? And how is ownership of rental property by non-residents a good thing? The issue of limiting non-owner occupied ownership would also depress selling prices as those with large amounts of equity have been pulling that out and buying rental property throughout this latest upswing. Think that's unfair? At least require them not to be absentee landlords. Seems to me offshore buying power is at the heart of the problem. My father, a part time resident, has owned as many as four properties simultaneously in the last two years. The sale of his mainland home made all of that possible.
                                Last edited by sinjin; January 10, 2007, 05:01 AM.
                                “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                                http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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