Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

I haven't looked at the details, but I'm leery of the idea. Don't really like the idea of turning Kakaako into a solid concrete canyon just to spare some areas. I live in downtown, I don't live on the Windward side, or the North Shore so why should I be in favor of making a horrid place to live so the rich folk can enjoy their nice little areas.

Because if turning Kakaako into a "concrete canyon" means saving the openness that is currently on the Windward side or North Shore, it means on your free time, you can drive a few short miles (compared to driving on the mainland) and enjoy nature. Would that not be better than if let's say, Kakaako no longer grows any more than its current state but the Windward side and the North Shore also become Kakaako clones? Then everything looks and feels the same. Besides, what if you become the rich guy one day, don't ya want to then have your home with a "view"?

Also, by increasing the supply of available homes, office space, retail space, in an area, the price becomes more affordable.

One scenerio I can see by going up is that eventually the land around that upward development will develop more upward development and pretty soon it does expand outwards. Waikiki is a perfect example of that.

It starts with one or two tall buildings separated by a few blocks, then more buildings fill in the gap and surrounding areas. Pretty soon you have a concrete canyon that took over not only the view, but the land for which that upward development tried to preserve.

Then as it is in Honolulu with no lateral expanse to build and a height limit proposals are in to raise that limit. The First Hawaiian Bank Building is already one example of how a variance can push heights upward.

Unless assurances are put into place BEFORE building upwards is allowed to ensure limited vertical development to just a few tall buildings per square mile of development, I can't see how building up will preserve the Aina for future generations to enjoy.

I see your point on development on a smaller footprint, however eventually there will be many footprints to set many buildings on and pretty soon you have the same lateral expansion problem that vertical expansion was trying to overcome but this time you also have visual blight to contend with on two axis instead of only one.

Your logic only makes sense because the council only took a baby step in the right direction by proposing to lift building height limits. There is still much to be done. What they need to propose next is to designate areas/neighborhoods that are "offlimits" to further development. Then you don't have the issue of building up and then expanding out. Waikiki is an example of your statement because Waikiki has pretty much already built out it's height limits and there is no rule to contain the area. Ultimately, the idea of having a concrete jungle to save the pristine countryside only works if it's a one-two punch. First law raises height limits in designated areas, second law declares no-build in other designated areas.

[timkona]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

One scenerio I can see by going up is that eventually the land around that upward development will develop more upward development and pretty soon it does expand outwards. Waikiki is a perfect example of that.

Exactly Craig. That's how cities were built BEFORE the advent of the automobile. Tall Buildings, right next to each other, where the next building was built on the very next plot of land. There used to be a crystal clear difference between City and Country, with no suburbs, or land-chewing stripmalls/subdivisions.

It is the automobile that has allowed humanity to diverge from the successful pattern of urban development that existed for millennia. If we want to reduce auto usage, we must build pedestrian friendly realities, where distances are measured 1 mile at a time, rather than 15 miles in 20 minutes. Taller buildings are much more viable today than 120 years ago, when the 5th floor walkup was the norm. Now we have elevators, and engineering, that will allow us to keep the city CITY, and the country COUNTRY.

I wholeheartedly encourage anybody with Craig's point of view to read a little about the subject. Miseducation, rooted in personal opinion or belief, is embarrassing. Isn't it?

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

One scenerio I can see by going up is that eventually the land around that upward development will develop more upward development and pretty soon it does expand outwards. Waikiki is a perfect example of that.

Exactly Craig. That's how cities were built BEFORE the advent of the automobile. Tall Buildings, right next to each other, where the next building was built on the very next plot of land. There used to be a crystal clear difference between City and Country, with no suburbs, or land-chewing stripmalls/subdivisions.

It is the automobile that has allowed humanity to diverge from the successful pattern of urban development that existed for millennia. If we want to reduce auto usage, we must build pedestrian friendly realities, where distances are measured 1 mile at a time, rather than 15 miles in 20 minutes. Taller buildings are much more viable today than 120 years ago, when the 5th floor walkup was the norm. Now we have elevators, and engineering, that will allow us to keep the city CITY, and the country COUNTRY.

I wholeheartedly encourage anybody with Craig's point of view to read a little about the subject. Miseducation, rooted in personal opinion or belief, is embarrassing. Isn't it?

Tim, Waikiki's expansion and ultimately Kakaako's development occured long after the advent of the automobile. The problem is when you allow one building to come up, it would be hard to disallow someone else from building next to you.

Yes taller buildings are more viable today than 120 years ago, but all that means is that you can put more of them next to each other as well. One way around the "canyon" look as noted in Waikiki and Downtown Honolulu is the setback requirements that keep a building's overhang way back from the sidewalks to give pedestrians some breathing space.

But come 4pm when the sun starts to dip, even with those setbacks, the ground level feeling is one of impending darkness too early in the day and as the temperature changes the wind picks up and pretty soon it's a dark and windy place amongst pillers of glass and steel.

Building up on Hawaii Island can work but we gotta make sure there are lots of space between these monoliths.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

Tim, Waikiki's expansion and ultimately Kakaako's development occured long after the advent of the automobile. The problem is when you allow one building to come up, it would be hard to disallow someone else from building next to you.

Yes taller buildings are more viable today than 120 years ago, but all that means is that you can put more of them next to each other as well. One way around the "canyon" look as noted in Waikiki and Downtown Honolulu is the setback requirements that keep a building's overhang way back from the sidewalks to give pedestrians some breathing space.

But come 4pm when the sun starts to dip, even with those setbacks, the ground level feeling is one of impending darkness too early in the day and as the temperature changes the wind picks up and pretty soon it's a dark and windy place amongst pillers of glass and steel.

Building up on Hawaii Island can work but we gotta make sure there are lots of space between these monoliths.

Actually, one positive I've noted from walking in canyon corridors is that they provide a level of shading. This in turn makes walking easier. You might say what's wrong with having a little sunshine but if you're walking to work or doing chores and not having freetime, having the sun beat down on you stinks. Why do you see so many grannys walking in Chinatown with umbrellas on sunny days? Cuz they can't stand the sun baring down on them. So a positive of building overhangs is partial shelter from the elements, it will definitely make walking less of a hassle during rain storms. I don't think impending darkness due to a building's shadow is a problem that can't be overcome. Given that new buildings have more and more of the reflective glass, an architect can design the building to help bounce light back onto the streets.

[timkona]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

Sounds like in spite of the facts, you have already made up your mind.

That's a very common way of looking at things.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

Sounds like in spite of the facts, you have already made up your mind.

That's a very common way of looking at things.

Tim if you've noticed I'm not against upward development, we just need to carefully address it's growth.

OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

[timkona]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

The most careful way to address the upward growth is place the importance of the land ahead of the importance of the view.

Another issue would be to limit tall buildings to the immediate periphery of existing tall buildings, and to forbid subdivisions on the outskirts.

People who say they prefer "low-density" growth clearly have no understanding of why their are no oranges left in Orange County.

[PoiBoy]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

I've never seen 1 big building stand alone. More will come....then soon you will have a mini New York. It's the nature of developers. Developers don't care about the aina. Anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant fool.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

It's not about one building but more of controlling zones, what zones can be concrete jungles, what zones can be countryside. When you do that, it will sort itself out.

[PoiBoy]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

Actually, one positive I've noted from walking in canyon corridors is that they provide a level of shading. This in turn makes walking easier. You might say what's wrong with having a little sunshine but if you're walking to work or doing chores and not having freetime, having the sun beat down on you stinks. Why do you see so many grannys walking in Chinatown with umbrellas on sunny days? Cuz they can't stand the sun baring down on them. So a positive of building overhangs is partial shelter from the elements, it will definitely make walking less of a hassle during rain storms. I don't think impending darkness due to a building's shadow is a problem that can't be overcome. Given that new buildings have more and more of the reflective glass, an architect can design the building to help bounce light back onto the streets.

OMG.

[PoiBoy]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

It's not about one building but more of controlling zones, what zones can be concrete jungles, what zones can be countryside. When you do that, it will sort itself out.

Easier said than done. Big building = Big money = Big buying power and Big influence

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

OMG.

¿cuál es la confusión?

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

it means on your free time, you can drive a few short miles (compared to driving on the mainland) and enjoy nature.

So I have to endure 120 hrs/wk in ugly Gotham city just for the opportunity to visit someplace nicer? No sale. Besides, that's what parks are for, not the suburbs of Kailua.

Would that not be better than if let's say, Kakaako no longer grows any more than its current state but the Windward side and the North Shore also become Kakaako clones?

Give it time. The land is limited, the population grows. How can it turn out otherwise?

Also, by increasing the supply of available homes, office space, retail space, in an area, the price becomes more affordable.

In theory. But you have to realize that demand isn't just the folks that are cramped up in smaller housing or living with their parents. It's also all of the residents who have moved to the mainland - as well as everyone on the mainland who is tired of snow. Bring the prices down enough and the population will explode and then you'll be right back where you started. And as long as Hawaii is part of the US with it's guarantees of unrestricted travel, that's the way it will always be.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

So I have to endure 120 hrs/wk in ugly Gotham city just for the opportunity to visit someplace nicer? No sale. Besides, that's what parks are for, not the suburbs of Kailua.

It's only Gotham City if the people of that city let it degrade into that. Besides, ever wonder what it means when people say, "I like to live the city life? A city's a city, that's the point. Keep the city from consuming the countryside by letting the city grow within the confines of the city. A city will still have parks but surely you can differentiate between a park and countryside? Ultimately, if the city life is something you dread, you're free to move out to the countryside.

Give it time. The land is limited, the population grows. How can it turn out otherwise?

Since you acknowledge the fact of finite land and continued population growth, why is it hard for you to accept letting the city grow to accommodate the growth? What is so rustic or natural about the existing corridor from downtown to Waikiki that you wish to preserve? Or is it NIMBY talking here?

In theory. But you have to realize that demand isn't just the folks that are cramped up in smaller housing or living with their parents. It's also all of the residents who have moved to the mainland - as well as everyone on the mainland who is tired of snow. Bring the prices down enough and the population will explode and then you'll be right back where you started. And as long as Hawaii is part of the US with it's guarantees of unrestricted travel, that's the way it will always be.

Yes, perhaps what you say will happen. But if the price goes back to where we are now but with more people, then it's still a success because more people got in at "affordable" prices as opposed to now. And no, I'm not promoting massive immigration to Hawaii. But you need to realize if you don't start providing "affordable" housing, the current population will suffer even more such as those that are homeless. Besides, just because the price of housing goes down doesn't mean a direct influx of immigrants. You still need available, good jobs, to attract people that want to settle. As for retiring away from snow, there are many other places that can offer warm weather too. Florida, Southern California, Arizona. All offer relatively snow free weather and cost of living is much lower than Hawaii.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Hawaii Rezoning Moratorium

It's only Gotham City if the people of that city let it degrade into that. ... What is so rustic or natural about the existing corridor from downtown to Waikiki that you wish to preserve?

Nobody ever plans to have Gotham City, it just turns out that way. And I think that building to maximum height on every lot is the way it starts. I'm fine with redeveloping Kakaako, but there are limits to what should be done.

Besides, there's a practical limit to how many people you can cram into an area. The roads won't take the traffic and nobody has come up with a plan to keep things in walking distance. This piece of legislation might be OK as part of a bigger package, but on it's own :thumbsdown: It's a blank check for developers to go hog wild while painting it a way to preserve other areas.

Yes, perhaps what you say will happen. But if the price goes back to where we are now but with more people, then it's still a success because more people got in at "affordable" prices as opposed to now. And no, I'm not promoting massive immigration to Hawaii. But you need to realize if you don't start providing "affordable" housing, the current population will suffer even more such as those that are homeless.

So you acknowledge that this is just a temporary solution?

As for retiring away from snow, there are many other places that can offer warm weather too. Florida, Southern California, Arizona. All offer relatively snow free weather and cost of living is much lower than Hawaii.

And they are growing like crazy. At least they have the land to grown on.