Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Indeed I answered my own question, which is there is no new technology involved here. You sure sound very confident that a power boat crashing into a whale won't kill it, nevermind the fact that speed boats have propellers thrashing in the water in addition to the speed. I fail to see how it's OK for whale watching boats to bump into whales periodically. You seem to have forgotten HSF's policy which is to change course and steer away if a whale is spotted, not remain idle.

I like the fact that the ship's skipper and HSF management are so confident that their spotters will be able (in the dark) to see a breaching whale at 100 or 200 yds. I like the fact that the skippers and HSF management are so confident the boat can "turn on a dime" to avoid the whales. Now, have the passengers on the ferry thought about what it would be like to be standing up when this "whale avoidance" occurred? Are there belts on the seats to ensure that passengers won't get hurt or thrown to the floor when such a maneuver occurs? Gee, wouldn't HSF be liable for some pretty massive injury lawsuits if this happened? So wouldn't it be better not to avoid the whales because whales can't sue as opposed to hurting passengers, who can? When you get your tickets, make sure you read the "fine print" to see if it doesn't say something like "purchaser of this ticket holds HSF not responsible for any injury or expense incurred while the boat is in progress."

I don't like the fact that they didn't bother to file for an incidental take permit from the feds in case they did hit a whale. They were either being really cocky about their ability, or they are counting on no one telling the feds if they do strike a whale. To hit a whale without one of these permits racks up a really nice fine.

When whale boats bump into whales, the majority of the time it's the WHALES bumping into the boats (curiosity) while they are idling and not the boats hitting the whales, but the whale nudges have to be reported too. And if boats going less way less than 20 kts can hit whales, what exponential quantity do you want to give to a boat going faster than 20 kts?

Miulang

P.S. If a powerboat going full speed and an adult humpback whale ever collided, I'd bet the whale would survive better than the idiots in the powerboat would.

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Seems like we're falling back on the sky is falling reasoning again. Spotting in the dark is done with night vision gear. Can you please tell me what other marine business plying these waters currently has any whale spotting? Maybe HSF's whale avoidance policy isn't satisfactory for you but I find it very ironic that no other company plying these waters have any whale policy as complete as HSF's yet you don't go prompting for an immediate stop to their business?

Now is that a fact or assumption that most times it's the whales bumping the boats? Why do you not call for an end to these whale watching tours? It's a fact that there have been whale strike incidents with them. With the ferry, it's been nothing but hypothesis at this point. And why is there this assumption that whales are dumb creatures? When you have something like the ferry shooting streams of water as propulsion, it generates a lot of noise. Whales will hear that far out. The ferry can turn on a dime, it doesn't even need tugs to park in the harbor.

[Konaguy]

Re: today's unions are crappola capitalist addiction , Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapte

Communist theory is best. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! Is that clear enough?

Well at least I know where your coming from. It also shows your true colors loud and clear.In a way you despise the government, but on the flip side you'd be perfectly happy if the government took care of all your needs. The latter is communism, atleast to me.

For me, I would be happy if government stayed out my life as much as possible.

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Back on topic, someone tipped me on this. Back in 2004, both Sens. Hooser and Baker were among the senators that introduced a resolution supporting
the fast tracking of the Hawaii Superferry. I find this very troubling, as both of these senators have been vocal opponents of HSF as of late.

http://thekonablog.wordpress.com/200...ferry-in-2004/

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Seems like we're falling back on the sky is falling reasoning again. Spotting in the dark is done with night vision gear. Can you please tell me what other marine business plying these waters currently has any whale spotting? Maybe HSF's whale avoidance policy isn't satisfactory for you but I find it very ironic that no other company plying these waters have any whale policy as complete as HSF's yet you don't go prompting for an immediate stop to their business?

The Feds who are the ones who created the rules which govern NMS said what HSF has done is admirable, but there is still more that it can do. No other marine service travels as fast as HSF will, day or night. When the sonar that was hyped a selling point of HSF was found not to be feasible and the use of spotters with night visor binoculars was proposed, did anyone stop to consider how hard it was for those individuals to keep their eyes constantly trained on the ocean looking for spouts? 3 hours of staring at open ocean with no breaks is an awfully long time. The whales don't have a restricted route or path they follow; the entire ocean is their highway.

I haven't heard yet of a YB barge or Matson boat striking a whale (haven't heard of any cruise liners doing it either). They present other problems, like invasive species spreading (both YB and Matson) and illegal dumping of hazardous waste (the cruise ships). So maybe there should just be a statewide rule to force YB, Matson and the cruise liners to also have spotters; I would have no objection to that.

Now is that a fact or assumption that most times it's the whales bumping the boats? Why do you not call for an end to these whale watching tours? It's a fact that there have been whale strike incidents with them. With the ferry, it's been nothing but hypothesis at this point. And why is there this assumption that whales are dumb creatures? When you have something like the ferry shooting streams of water as propulsion, it generates a lot of noise. Whales will hear that far out. The ferry can turn on a dime, it doesn't even need tugs to park in the harbor.

Greg Kaufman gave testimony at the hearings that whale nudgings are counted as "strikes". It's the "turning on a dime" part that should worry ferry passengers. What happens if a whale should suddenly surface closer in than 100 yds without any warning? what would the skipper do? Turn on a dime? At what speed? It's easier to control a car going into a corner by accelerating than putting on one's brakes, so if the ferry was making an evasive move at full speed, would that mean that there would be some amount of inertia that would impact passengers, particularly the ones who are standing at the time? You see this too in an airplane, when you hit air pockets and you aren't belted into your seat. Will HSF have a special signal made known to passengers in advance so they can prepare themselves (i.e., sit down and hold on) so they don't injure themselves?

Did you not see the part I wrote about limiting the number of whale boats that are allowed in business? You can't stop it completely because to do so would remove one of the largest sources of income from tourists visiting Maui in the wintertime. And I thought everybody wanted the tourists to appreciate Hawai'i for its natural beauty and are looking for new ways to boost the economy? Ecotourism and agritourism are two ways the Neighbor Islands can contribute.

And I really hope HSF does follow the fed's "suggestion" that they file for an incidental take permit. That should be like another form of insurance for HSF. Why don't they want to protect themselves?

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

I haven't heard yet of a YB barge or Matson boat striking a whale (haven't heard of any cruise liners doing it either).

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...2004/story.htm

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Celebrit...t_19_2006.html

http://www.pacificenvironment.org/article.php?id=2224

Greg Kaufman gave testimony at the hearings that whale nudgings are counted as "strikes". It's the "turning on a dime" part that should worry ferry passengers. What happens if a whale should suddenly surface closer in than 100 yds without any warning? what would the skipper do? Turn on a dime? At what speed? It's easier to control a car going into a corner by accelerating than putting on one's brakes, so if the ferry was making an evasive move at full speed, would that mean that there would be some amount of inertia that would impact passengers, particularly the ones who are standing at the time? You see this too in an airplane, when you hit air pockets and you aren't belted into your seat. Will HSF have a special signal made known to passengers in advance so they can prepare themselves (i.e., sit down and hold on) so they don't injure themselves?

Did you not see the part I wrote about limiting the number of whale boats that are allowed in business? You can't stop it completely because to do so would remove one of the largest sources of income from tourists visiting Maui in the wintertime. And I thought everybody wanted the tourists to appreciate Hawai'i for its natural beauty and are looking for new ways to boost the economy? Ecotourism and agritourism are two ways the Neighbor Islands can contribute.

What happens if a plane experiences decompression? What happens when you are driving through an intersection and an old granny jumps out and if you serve, you hit the kids playing jacks on the sidewalk? Again, you're presenting scenarios that really don't have a perfect solution. Can we move past the sky is falling arguments?

Oh yes you can, you can stop all those whale watching boats if you were serious about the whale issue. Besides, why the concern for income? I thought it was about the aina, living off the land, and all that fun stuff.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...2004/story.htm

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Celebrit...t_19_2006.html

http://www.pacificenvironment.org/article.php?id=2224





What happens if a plane experiences decompression? What happens when you are driving through an intersection and an old granny jumps out and if you serve, you hit the kids playing jacks on the sidewalk? Again, you're presenting scenarios that really don't have a perfect solution. Can we move past the sky is falling arguments?

When a plane experiences sudden decompression, breathing masks drop from the ceiling. When you're driving through an intersection and granny jumps in front of your car, you either have quick enough reflexes that you can swerve to avoid her (and probably hurt yourself by crashing into another car or something else) or you hit granny. I don't know about serving because I don't know any kids who play jacks.

It's not sky falling arguments; it's called "prudence". Why else would they give you that preflight speech that everybody ignores?

So tell me why even after the feds "suggested" that HSF take out an incidental take permit, that they declined to do so, and yet just recently, Garibaldi, when questioned about it, said that the option was still open? Why didn't he just go do it?

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

What happens if a whale should suddenly surface closer in than 100 yds without any warning?

Let's say SuperFerry is going 35mph, or 184,800 feet per hour, or 3,080 feet per minute. If the whale is 100 yards (300 feet) away, the boat will be past the whale in six seconds. No possible way it's going to hit the whale!
Further, whales have extremely sensitive hearing and turn away from loud noises. When they hear the SuperFerry coming, the whales will turn 180 degrees away from it.
(Try reading the research book "Hearing By Whales & Dolphins" for more about their auditory capabilities.)
Did SeaFlite ever hit a whale in their years of high-speed operation here? NO.
Yet with all of the facts above, somehow I have the feeling the anti-HSF folks will continue to rant.
And the rest of us will shake our heads at their pathetic attempts.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Back on topic, someone tipped me on this. Back in 2004, both Sens. Hooser and Baker were among the senators that introduced a resolution supporting
the fast tracking of the Hawaii Superferry. I find this very troubling, as both of these senators have been vocal opponents of HSF as of late.

http://thekonablog.wordpress.com/200...ferry-in-2004/

I believe that's called "changing one's mind in light of new facts that surface."

Miulang

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

I believe that's called "changing one's mind in light of new facts that surface."

I think both senators are hypocrites, in my opinion. The problems with HSF were evident as early as 2004. So it's unconscionable that these senators
supported this resolution. I'll call it like I see it.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

I think both senators are hypocrites, in my opinion. The problems with HSF were evident as early as 2004. So it's unconscionable that these senators
supported this resolution. I'll call it like I see it.

And you would then call those Legislators who were against HSF at the beginning and who are now for HSF starting, hypocrites too, I hope?

Interesting "stuff" from Ian Lind's blog today and Doug of Poinography's blog and Larry Geller's "Disappeared News" blog.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

And you would then call those Legislators who were against HSF at the beginning and who are now for HSF starting, hypocrites too, I hope?

I'm not aware of any legislators who have done that. Care to cite some examples ?

[joshuatree]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

When a plane experiences sudden decompression, breathing masks drop from the ceiling. When you're driving through an intersection and granny jumps in front of your car, you either have quick enough reflexes that you can swerve to avoid her (and probably hurt yourself by crashing into another car or something else) or you hit granny. I don't know about serving because I don't know any kids who play jacks.

It's not sky falling arguments; it's called "prudence". Why else would they give you that preflight speech that everybody ignores?

So tell me why even after the feds "suggested" that HSF take out an incidental take permit, that they declined to do so, and yet just recently, Garibaldi, when questioned about it, said that the option was still open? Why didn't he just go do it?

Miulang

And if the ferry spots a whale, it doesn't need to slow down but change course, veering far left or right, people will just feel a slight tug much like when you're on a bus making a turn due to it's double hull stability.

Because it's suggested vs mandated. How many of the other maritime operators in the water have the incidental take permit?

[cynsaligia]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

If people want the service badly enough...i.e. it becomes a necessity, they will patronize it often enough to make it financially viable; otherwise, why go through the expense of calling the special session? Why make all the exceptions to the laws? And what happens if the boat goes under while the EIS is being completed? Wouldn't that make the state look even more stupid?

correct me if i am wrong, and maybe there aren't enough similarities bcs HSF is a service...but haven't there been new businesses that have started with some sort of help from the state, either by subsidy or tax relief, that either have failed or are not so invested in hawaii? for example, tech businesses (what was the name of that cgi movie where ming-na provided the main character's voice?), the film industry? didn't the company that did the movie i described pack up and leave because even tho hawaii is a great location, being between the east and the west, the cost of doing business is overbearing? and while it's great that hollywood likes to film here, it's not like they provide a lot of jobs with permanence, either. my understanding is that the film industry gets a tax break when they come to hawaii--they don't have to pay excise.

if i'm right, then this special session for HSF is small potatoes, in my opinion.

[Miulang]

Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

And if the ferry spots a whale, it doesn't need to slow down but change course, veering far left or right, people will just feel a slight tug much like when you're on a bus making a turn due to it's double hull stability.

Because it's suggested vs mandated. How many of the other maritime operators in the water have the incidental take permit?

There are no commercial enterprises now in Hawai'i that have a Title X permit. Boats that are caught harassing or hurting whales are assessed hefty fines (from $20k to $100k per incident).

However, in light of the fact that HSF has already run into so many problems already, you'd think they would want to go over and above what they've already done in order to appear like they want to be cooperative and set an example. But wait. There's a good reason why they didn't bother to file for a Title X permit: they would have had to comply with those darned NEPA rules again. (See the part of the form titled "Application for a Permit Under the Endangered Species Act"). Darned all that paperwork just to do business!

This particular section of the Wildlife and Fisheries Act is particularly interesting.

Miulang