Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

[kamuelakea]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

But you're right the Japanese are equally to blame, they brought in Senator Daniel Inouye who helps bring in the "Federal Haole's" money to build schools and roads to connect all the "Subdivision and Big Box Haole's" establishments.

My personal worst man made scar in all of Hawaii is the H-3. I was away from Hawaii during the years of its major construction on the Kaneohe side. It is the one man made structure in the my life that almost made me cry. That highway slashed accross the Koolaus was the sickest scar on Hawaiian lands that I've ever seen.

Dan Inouye is PERSONALLY responsible for that highway as he snuck an environmental exemption into a budget bill. Sickening.

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

What about the argument that even the "indigenous" people of Hawai'i and the American mainland came from somewhere else? That makes the "indigenous" folks to be just the original invaders, doesn't it? And if so, then why doesn't your argument pertain to darned near every piece of dry land on the planet? If the birthplace of mankind was indeed Africa, then everything (and every place) since then has been a 'takeover' of one sort or another.
Not arguing or taking a position here. Just asking a question.

Now this intellectual discussion is starting to get interesting. What you state is probably true (i.e., scientists believe the that first man evolved in Africa). Whichever sentient being "invaded" a land first had first claim to it. In Africa, that would mean the Africans are the "first" and "indigenous" people; in China, the Mongols probably were, etc. etc. etc. All I'm saying is to respect whoever (or whichever culture) happened to inhabit a particular land first. For most of the "first" peoples' cultures, that meant living on the land and respecting it and knowing that if they weren't stewards of the land, they would die, because the land would die. What is today's prevailing attitude about preserving the earth? How does it differ from what we know about the kanaka maoli and the Native Americans? Interesting how most of those "backward" societies had deities (aumakua) that were tied to things in nature, not things like money.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

My personal worst man made scar in all of Hawaii is the H-3. I was away from Hawaii during the years of its major construction on the Kaneohe side. It is the one man made structure in the my life that almost made me cry. That highway slashed accross the Koolaus was the sickest scar on Hawaiian lands that I've ever seen.

Dan Inouye is PERSONALLY responsible for that highway as he snuck an environmental exemption into a budget bill. Sickening.

Isn't that highway also the one that desecrated the resting places of many kanaka maoli? I personally don't like Dan the Man myself. He's been in power way too long, as is true with many of the really corrupt politicos in power today, regardless of race or political party (look at what that Stevens dude is doing up in Alaska. He got pork barrel funding for a $22 million highway to nowhere). Stevens is also the one who tried to sneak in oil drilling in ANWR into the defense budget supplemental. And I think Danny boy his crony was in favor of that, too, wasn't he?

Miulang

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

That's some selective quoting. This paragraph of the article says it all. Climate change had little to do with the extinction. The Maoris of New Zealand killed off the Moa, another flightless bird.

It could also well be that the reason the Maoris ended up killing the Moa is because they had very few other sources of food (you know, the old survival instinct) and they were more cunning than the poor defenseless, flightless moa? The Maoris of that period sure as hell weren't building skyscrapers or participating in international commerce! Maybe the Maori were trying to meet the first stage of Maslow's hierarchy of needs...that of being able to feed themselves and survive.

Miulang

P.S. If I was in a situation where it was to kill something on the verge of extinction because I was starving to death, I think I would put my own survival before that of a nearly extinct species. I'd probably feel guilty about it, though, if I knew that was the case (which I probably wouldn't).

You also selected the following quote from that same article: "...Native bird bones dominate the earliest sites. As time progresses there are less and less native bird bones in the middens and more and more Polynesian introduced food sources such as dog, pig, and chicken. ..." I think even Olson has to come to the conclusion that the reason the ancients ate what they did was because it was all they had at hand at the time, and as new food sources got introduced, it allowed for more choices.

[LikaNui]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

Now this intellectual discussion is starting to get interesting.

Wow! Thanks! (I think.)

What you state is probably true (i.e., scientists believe the that first man evolved in Africa). Whichever sentient being "invaded" a land first had first claim to it.

Wait. "Sentient" means "capable of feeling or perceiving; conscious" so it would then follow that the "sentient beings" you refer to as having "first claim" are... animals. Not humans.

It then logically follows that all humans are invaders.

All I'm saying is to respect whoever (or whichever culture) happened to inhabit a particular land first.

I find it difficult to buy the childish and naive concept of anyone stomping their foot petulantly and saying "I came here first so it's mine... mine... MINE." Sure, maybe in an ideal world. But we're not an ideal world, by a long shot. Almost every culture I can think of has gotten where they are by conquering others. Survival of the fittest. A fact of life.
Probably be better if we did give it all back to the animals.

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

Wow! Thanks! (I think.)

Wait. "Sentient" means "capable of feeling or perceiving; conscious" so it would then follow that the "sentient beings" you refer to as having "first claim" are... animals. Not humans.

It then logically follows that all humans are invaders.


I find it difficult to buy the childish and naive concept of anyone stomping their foot petulantly and saying "I came here first so it's mine... mine... MINE." Sure, maybe in an ideal world. But we're not an ideal world, by a long shot. Almost every culture I can think of has gotten where they are by conquering others. Survival of the fittest. A fact of life.
Probably be better if we did give it all back to the animals.

I think the message the First People everywhere are trying to get across is that there is enough for EVERYONE, if everyone shares and respects each other. By sentient beings I meant homo sapiens. Even fleas have a brain, you know!

Miulang

[LikaNui]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

I think the message the First People everywhere are trying to get across is that there is enough for EVERYONE, if everyone shares and respects each other.

Exactly. So since we all agree that everyone should share, then... why all this arguing about haoles and others coming to Hawai`i?!?? Do they mean that everyone should share their land except Hawai`i?

By sentient beings I meant homo sapiens. Even fleas have a brain, you know!

Yes, and again, that was my point. Fleas and all other animals qualify as "sentient" and they were here before homo sapiens, so it's their land.
I think.
And now, back to the old "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

Exactly. So since we all agree that everyone should share, then... why all this arguing about haoles and others coming to Hawai`i?!?? Do they mean that everyone should share their land except Hawai`i?

Aw, come on, Lika, you know what I mean. What we're talking about are the Caucasians and others who move to Hawai'i who want MORE than they need. The ones who send developers to buy up farmland and sell homelots for ukapila money, could care diddly about what the impacts of those developments are on the infrastructure and natural resources (yes, I also blame the County planning commissions), make their fortunes and leave the 'aina, leaving the taxpayers to try to figure out how to dig themselves out of the hole. These are the people who only want NEW and don't really care about trying to save the OLD; they want change for the sake of change, not because it's good for the people.

Pretty soon, I fear that a "local" in Hawai'i (and I'm talking about kanaka maoli, but also including Hawai'i born haoles, Hawai'i born Japanese, Filipino, Chinese, Puerto Rican, Portuguese Americans) will be as scarce as a native born Washingtonian is here. Because of the high cost of living in Hawai'i (partially being driven by the "wants" as opposed to the "needs" of the population), there are more kanaka maoli in the State of Washington than on the island of Kaua'i! Why is Las Vegas called the "9th Hawaiian Island?" The majority of locals who live up here now are not here by choice, but by necessity because frankly, working two or three jobs just to make ends meet is not a very healthy way to live.

Miulang

P.S. The only time I think the animals would be able to replace humans is in a "Planet of the Apes" situation.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

Pretty soon, I fear that a "local" in Hawai'i (and I'm talking about kanaka maoli, but also including Hawai'i born haoles, Hawai'i born Japanese, Filipino, Chinese, Puerto Rican, Portuguese Americans) will be as scarce as a native born Washingtonian is here.

Guess whose selling the land and their homes to those scary "mainlanders"? It the Hawai'i born haoles, Hawai'i born Japanese, Filipino, Chinese, Puerto Rican, Portuguese Americans. They are taking top dollar and selling the land and homes allowing new immigrants a place to live on Maui or whereever.

I really find it humerous how so many can passionately make the arguement that the immigrants you list should be pityed while the new immigrants should be feared. They are all immigrants to me.

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

Guess whose selling the land and their homes to those scary "mainlanders"? It the Hawai'i born haoles, Hawai'i born Japanese, Filipino, Chinese, Puerto Rican, Portuguese Americans. They are taking top dollar and selling the land and homes allowing new immigrants a place to live on Maui or whereever.

I really find it humerous how so many can passionately make the arguement that the immigrants you list should be pityed while the new immigrants should be feared. They are all immigrants to me.

And of course you know where they're going after they sell their houses, right? They aren't sticking around in Hawai'i...they're coming up here where they have a chance to work only one job instead of three! The new immigrants (the rich retirees anyway) know they can afford the high cost of living; the locals who are leaving realize they will never be able to live well there. And the ones who are moving to Hawai'i now don't necessarily want to keep Hawai'i Hawai'i: they want Hawai'i to be fashioned into someplace they want, of which the net result will be that Hawai'i will end up looking like "every place else". If that's what the people want, then go for it. I doubt any local in Hawai'i fears the newcomers, but there sure the heck is a lot of resentment over some of their attitudes.

Miulang

P.S. Of course, the same sort of thing has happened here in Washington. The migration of Californians up here in the 80s and 90s forced the cost of living to escalate, which in turn forced native born Washingtonians to head for the hills. We used to say that Washington State got Californicated because those people sold their homes in SoCal especially for huge amounts of money and were able to outbuy any people living here. They would pay for megamansions in ca$h, while the rest of us could only dream about affording a condo or a house way way way out in the boonies.

[waioli kai]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

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Miulang: "... And the ones who are moving to Hawai'i now don't necessarily want to keep Hawai'i Hawai'i: they want Hawai'i to be fashioned into someplace they want, of which the net result will be that Hawai'i will end up looking like 'every place else'."

There are a signifigant number of "Americans" --i.e., mainland U.S. citizens by birth or increasingly by naturalization-- 'who are moving to Hawai'i ' who really never intend to move to the State of Hawaii in Hawai'i at all... in fact they most intentionally do not officially reside in the State of Hawaii whatsoever because they want to avoid paying State of Hawaii income taxes.

[kamuelakea]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

And of course you know where they're going after they sell their houses, right? They aren't sticking around in Hawai'i...they're coming up here where they have a chance to work only one job instead of three! The new immigrants (the rich retirees anyway) know they can afford the high cost of living; the locals who are leaving realize they will never be able to live well there. And the ones who are moving to Hawai'i now don't necessarily want to keep Hawai'i Hawai'i: they want Hawai'i to be fashioned into someplace they want, of which the net result will be that Hawai'i will end up looking like "every place else". If that's what the people want, then go for it. I doubt any local in Hawai'i fears the newcomers, but there sure the heck is a lot of resentment over some of their attitudes. Miulang

And what have the mostly plantation immigrant politicians done to alleviate the cost of living problem? Nothing. Partly this is captialism which is life in America. But they could easily make some tax moves that would encourage resident land ownership. Make residential property taxes 10 times as much with a huge single owner occupier exemption. But they don't want to do that because much of their business income opportunities are paid for with outside money.

The biggest whores selling your definition of "Hawaii" (meaning plantation hawaii) down the Wailuku river are the plantation politicians themselves. Its all about taking care of your own first. That's their culture. You can keep feeling sorry for "them" but most of "them" aren't worried. "They" will take care of their own by living together in shanty town homes, jobs by nepotism, and other tricks of survival. That's your Hawaii.

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

That's your Hawaii.

No, that's YOUR Hawai'i. The one you are living in today. It's not my Hawai'i yet...not until I move back there.

I agree with your assessment of the political situation there. But the only way that will change is if the voters choose to make a change. I would hope that if Hawai'i could ever become a sovereign nation (snowball's chance in hell, but hey, I can dream, can't I?) that the original dwellers of the land would not do unto others that which was done unto them. If they did that then, truly, the word "Aloha" would mean nothing at all.

Miulang

[beaker]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

I never meant to imply that one stream of immigrants was superior to any other. My only point is most of us from Hawai'i are the progeny of immigrants, much as Anglo Americans are progeny of immigrants.

What does "Anglo Americans" mean, anyway? I suspect it was manufactured by somebody to partner with the "Latino" and "Afro" labels, for convenience. I think most people who use it aren't talking about the people they think they are...that is it describes a stereotype rather than a group of people. (The vast majority of them probably don't even know who the Angles were.)

[Miulang]

Re: Maui becoming the "Mainland" Island?

What does "Anglo Americans" mean, anyway? I suspect it was manufactured by somebody to partner with the "Latino" and "Afro" labels, for convenience. I think most people who use it aren't talking about the people they think they are...that is it describes a stereotype rather than a group of people. (The vast majority of them probably don't even know who the Angles were.)

I use Anglo Americans in the context of Caucasians who trace their lineages to Europe but who are US native born or naturalized Americans. It's used in the same context as "African Americans" is: Americans who can trace their ancestral lineages to Africa who could have come from West Africa, Ghana, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Burkina Faso, Mali, etc.

Miulang