Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

[tikiyaki]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

Found these definintions

From Mirriam Websters Dictionary Online

\?t?-k?\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Maori & Marquesan, from Tiki, first man or creator of first man
Date:
1777
: a wood or stone image of a Polynesian supernatural power

From wehewehe.org - online Hawaiian dictionary I found this

No entries found for Tiki.


And from the same site, this definition for Ki'i

ki?i
1. n. Image, statue, picture, photograph, drawing, diagram, illustration, likeness, cartoon, idol, doll, petroglyph; features, as of a face; plans, as for a house; carved, as end of an ?auamo pole. Cf. akua k??ai, hula ki?i, kaha ki?i, ki?i ??nohi, na?ana?a 1, pa?i ki?i. Kona ki?i, his picture, statue (of him). K?na ki?i, a picture (or statue) by him or owned by him. Pepa ki?i, joker, in deck of cards. Ki?i maka nunui, prominent, wealthy, or important person, VIP; lit., big-eyed image. Ki?i maka li?ili?i, ordinary person; lit., small-eyed image. ?O ke ki?i n? k?l? o ka makuahine, he's the image of his mother. He ?oko?a kona ki?i a me kona k?lana (FS 279), her features and appearance were different. (PCP tiki.)

2. vt. To fetch, get, procure, send for, go after, summon, attack; to seek for sexual ends. See maka ki?i. ho?o.ki?i, To send, have sent for; to take away (Isa. 34.4.) (PCP tiki.)

3. vi. To try and, go and (idiomatic). See ex., lolelole. E ki?i ? loa?a ? loa?a ?ole mai paha, go and get or perhaps don't get.

4. nvi. Hula step: one foot points to the side, front, and back; then the other foot does the same. Also w?wae ki?i, fetching step.

5. Same as ?alani, orange.

6. n. Gesture, as in hula.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

4. nvi. Hula step: one foot points to the side, front, and back; then the other foot does the same. Also w?wae ki?i, fetching step.

I had forgotten that, which I learned as ki`i wawae. And as we all know, there were some missionaries who, from a Christian perspective, considered hula wrong.

As Scrivener didn't quite say, we should also remember that there is no one, single, all-encompassing, "Christian perspective," but rather, as wide a range of them as there is Christians. Just like HT.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

PCP:Proto Central Polynesian

A word found in more than one Central Polynesian language, such as Hawaiian, Marquesan, Rarotongang, Maori and Tahitian. (page xx of Puku'i's Hawaiian Dictionary)

Notice that in the wehewehe.org site for the word "ki'i" is "PCP: tiki".

[tikiyaki]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

tiki is kitsch. But is derived from the ki'i, which are in the images of our ancestral gods. The former has no mana. The latter is the being of my people.

You show me a smiley tiki, and it doesn't bug me.

You show me one in the image of those of Honaunau, and I am offended to the bone.

After going back and re-reading this thread now I understand why. Is there a specific image you are talking about ? Having visited Pu?uhonua o H?naunau National Historic Park twice, are the images you speak of any of the ones that are standing in the park today? Just would like to know as not to acquire any such carvings.

I do have alot of tikis in the house, but they are mainly of the kitsch variety.

[Miulang]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

After going back and re-reading this thread now I understand why. Is there a specific image you are talking about ? Having visited Pu?uhonua o H?naunau National Historic Park twice, are the images you speak of any of the ones that are standing in the park today? Just would like to know as not to acquire any such carvings.

Those would be examples of what we're talking about, yes.

Miulang

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

After going back and re-reading this thread now I understand why. Is there a specific image you are talking about ? Having visited Pu?uhonua o H?naunau National Historic Park twice, are the images you speak of any of the ones that are standing in the park today? Just would like to know as not to acquire any such carvings.

I do have alot of tikis in the house, but they are mainly of the kitsch variety.

Serious question: how come what I said in post #15 in this thread wasn't sufficient to get my point across? Must it require personal histories and connections and aboriginal factor in order to convey merit?

Maybe I should restate it:

Christian kitsch and tiki kitsch aren't on the same level. The first still has more cultural weight than the latter, because the broad pov is that our Gods aren't as valuable/real/meaningful/profound/important/living as the Christian God. Hence any kitsch (My Buddy Jesus™, the Bobblehead Virgin®, etc) escape these sorts of conversations. For them, it's just about blasphemy, and not fun&cool factor a la Tommy Bahama.

[PoiBoy]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

I hope that isn't the... "tiki authority" ?

tiki this tiki that....you should know this already.

[Miulang]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

If bad things happen to people who own tikis which were not specifically designed to be decorative and therefore had mana attached to them, then they might believe that owning and showing religious ki'i is bad. Kinda like tourists taking pieces of lava from Kilauea back home and then having bad things happen to them, and those bad things keep happening until they return the lava back to where it came from. The kanaka maoli are very spiritual people, and I respect their beliefs.

Even with decorative tikis, I think it's disrespectful to have tiki holding bottles of beer, etc. For Christians, it would akin to painting a cross used for worship pink.

Miulang

[Hellbent]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

having run a business i have learned that you cannot please everyone. you are concerned that customers may not come in because they percieve your store as what? a house of false worship?
do you even want these people in your establishment? if so you can invite her church group over and show them that you dont worship tikiyaki (just make sure you hide the incense burners and human sacrifice altars first) give them a 10% group discount. convert them into customers. if you do so, please post how much they tip =)

[tikiyaki]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

Serious question: how come what I said in post #15 in this thread wasn't sufficient to get my point across? Must it require personal histories and connections and aboriginal factor in order to convey merit?

No, not questioning anyone's merit. Forget I asked.

[DiverDown808]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

Aloha MakaP

First of all, the bible is very clear that we, as Christians, are not here to judge people. That role has been given to God. It really wasn't her place to demand you to remove your Tiki's. If she finds it offensive, then she has the right to dine somewhere else.

It would be great if we all could live our lives and not offend anyone, but that's an imaginary world. So I wouldn't take her objections to heart and make drastic business decisions.

Now what would Hawaiian's think ? Just remember that Tiki's are a representation of Hawaii's culture long ago. Some people will find the commercialism of their culture offensive. But them again, in this day and age, the Tiki has become more ornamental than anything else and I'm pretty sure you're not the first to have them as a decorative or theme-based addition to your business.

So you know what ? Run your business the most successful way you can and the way YOU want to run it. If Christians want you to remove them because they represent false Gods, just say "No, but I can recommend a great restaraunt down the road." And if Hawaiian's find it offensive, tell them they're Totem Poles from Alaska

Point is, don't let the vocal people get you down. Like the song says: "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"............in a Christian-like manner, of course

DD

[MakaP]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

If anything I do think the Tikis play their part in spreading Aloha in a place of the world where many people will never ever expirience it....Tons of questions are asked about Hawaii and people become very interested when thy're immersed in a differant world....hearing IZ play or being serenated by the uke, hearing the servers (we got local boys) talk about home, seeing the hula being done etc. We are in a wonderful position to spread Aloha and educate people who have never been to Hawaii and many of whom will never go, and I do believe the tikis play a little role in that along with lots of other factors.....so all in all i do believe no bad comes from them being displayed...only good! I dont understand someone being offeneded...I would think and do believe Hawaiians LOVE it (as I do)when there culture is spread and more people know about it....

[Miulang]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

If anything I do think the Tikis play their part in spreading Aloha in a place of the world where many people will never ever expirience it....Tons of questions are asked about Hawaii and people become very interested when thy're immersed in a differant world....hearing IZ play or being serenated by the uke, hearing the servers (we got local boys) talk about home, seeing the hula being done etc. We are in a wonderful position to spread Aloha and educate people who have never been to Hawaii and many of whom will never go, and I do believe the tikis play a little role in that along with lots of other factors.....so all in all i do believe no bad comes from them being displayed...only good! I dont understand someone being offeneded...I would think and do believe Hawaiians LOVE it (as I do)when there culture is spread and more people know about it....

Like someone earlier said, if people are offended by your tiki, then they don't need to grace your restaurant. Plain and simple as that.

Miulang

P.S. when your guests ask about the tiki, do you explain their significance to the native Hawaiians? If you do that, then THAT'S spreading Aloha and not perpetuating a misperception of their function in Hawaiian life.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

these last three posts are condescending and infuriating.

Ornamental and commercial factor does not erase genealogy and the fact that Hawaiians still know we descend from these akua. And a God begetting the peoples of the Middle East is no more authentic, old or sacred than that which begot us here.

Hawaiians are Hawaiians. Not "ancient" vs "modern". We know who we are; inspired by our ancestors and forces to be reckoned with by our descendants.

Ornamental value is not equal to spreading the culture.

One's "feelings" about owning a tiki bar should dare not import confidence to speak on behalf of another people.

And my hand gestures at the collective audacity and willful ignorance ain't totem poles from Alaska.

Maka, your tiki bar is a sin towards Yahweh and you, deep down in your heart, know it. It is also a sin towards the Gods of my people, my own ancestors and descendants, and you know this, too, for you have been told.

[Miulang]

Re: Are tikis wrong- from Christian perspective?

these last three posts are condescending and infuriating.

Ornamental and commercial factor does not erase genealogy and the fact that Hawaiians still know we descend from these akua. And a God begetting the peoples of the Middle East is no more authentic, old or sacred than that which begot us here.

Hawaiians are Hawaiians. Not "ancient" vs "modern". We know who we are; inspired by our ancestors and forces to be reckoned with by our descendants.

Ornamental value is not equal to spreading the culture.

One's "feelings" about owning a tiki bar should dare not import confidence to speak on behalf of another people.

And my hand gestures at the collective audacity and willful ignorance ain't totem poles from Alaska.

Maka, your tiki bar is a sin towards Yahweh and you, deep down in your heart, know it. It is also a sin towards the Gods of my people, my own ancestors and descendants, and you know this, too, for you have been told.

On that note, I respectfully bow out of this thread. I don't own any tiki, don't patronize any places that have tiki kitsch and cringe everytime I see tiki kitsch. Pua'i, I think Maka is naive and was caught up in the kitsch craze as are many unknowing people on CONUS are. Now that he has been told more than once, perhaps he will be more considerate of others' feelings on the subject. Not being a Christian (or anything else but an agnostic), I was always told that Christians were taught that love for others and tolerance was one of the highest tenets of the religion. I guess not, in some cases. I am kind of surprised that his kumu didn't explain this cultural aspect of the kanaka maoli.

Miulang