Women in a man's world - What are your views?

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

i bet you pick out five women real quick (maybe from waianae or kahuku side--wotchutink?), give them the necessary and similar training that karen's hubby got, and have them do just as well as he did, if not better, bcs they have that fire of having to prove themselves to be just as good if not better than mr. karen did."

I bet not! the proof of this is in the many fire depts. which females are ABSENT from. Why are they? They fail they physical tests to become one. I already posted this on here, and it cannot be ignored or denied that it screams the fact that women's bodies are weaker than men's. Women like to be cops, yet none like to be fire fighters? Not so....the ones that try, fail. I know one of them from San Antonio.

A man can carry a wounded comrad, or a dead body when women cannot, for that is part of the fire fighter's test and my dear friend failed to carry or drag a certain amount of weight, and I can't remember what else, if anything in the test that prevented her from becoming a firefighter.

when trained, be it for Viet Nam or for fire fighting, men do it better because nature made them more able to do certain things.

[anapuni808]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

I know I said I was done with this thread but I just gotta say this after this last posting. To quote a good friend of mine from earlier today:

Karen, you are such a waste of a good pair of ovaries!

Now I'm outa here.

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

LOL! there it is, folks...

"ad hominem!"

When ya can't gainsay the message, start hurling personal insults....at the messenger. In fact, when a poster does they prove they lost whatever debate was going on and had to result to ad hominem.

From what I can find so far, approximately TWO PERCENT of our nation's fire fighters are female. In NYC, out of over 11,000 firefighters? approx....only 28 are female.

Why? it should be obvious, as I said previously, generally speaking men are stronger than women.

Yeah, I'm outta here, too. There is nothing left to debate or oppose, as they showed themselves better than I could have, had I tried. Lordy.....were I them, I'd be laughing out loud, is that what one said?

[anapuni808]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

the ad hominem fallacy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed.

In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments.

Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument.

Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument.

But enough vagueness. The point of this article is to bury the reader under an avalanche of examples of correct and incorrect usage of ad hominem, in the hope that once the avalanche has passed, the term will never be used incorrectly again. I will begin with some invented examples, before dealing with some real-life misuses of the term at the end.

If anyone want to read the rest of this article, you can find it at http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Must you further embarass yourself? here you are, so desperate to find fault with me that you are left with only being able to.....instead of diagram my sentences, grade me for grammar of another kind?!

Here...enjoy this...


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

ad hominem

SYLLABICATION: ad hom·i·nem
PRONUNCIATION: hm-nm, -nm

ADJECTIVE: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

ETYMOLOGY: Latin : ad, to + hominem, accusative of hom, man.
OTHER FORMS: ad homi·nem —ADVERB


"The phrase now chiefly describes an argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case: Ad hominem attacks on one's opponent are a tried-and-true strategy for people who have a case that is weak. Ninety percent of the Panel finds this sentence acceptable. The expression now also has a looser use in referring to any personal attack..."

It ain't over till the fat lady sings. Well, I am 5'6 and 30lbs. overweight at this time, and I'm singing......

[acousticlady]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

From what I can find so far, approximately TWO PERCENT of our nation's fire fighters are female. In NYC, out of over 11,000 firefighters? approx....only 28 are female.

Karen, I have been really trying hard to stay out of this argument. While I enjoy your banter on other threads, I gotta say - I have to agree with the others on this one.

But this isn't JUST about how many women are firefighters or military or cops (and your numbers are skewed-checkout some smaller towns). Let me ask you this - why is it that only 11% of all physicists are women? Do you honestly believe that it is because men are smarter than women? I like to think that I am no smarter (or dumber ) than any other woman or any other man. Maybe more driven...... What about the music tech industry? I don't know the exact percentage, but it is much lower than that of physics. What about the computer science field? I have worked with some music synthesis groups such as Stanford's CCRMA (the mathematics behind Garageband for instance), and let me tell you - I am generally the only woman in all of these fields. And NONE of these fields require any physical strength (unless you count staying awake late nights in the lab). What is it that turns women away from these fields? I don't know the answer. I wish I did. We (in the field) are ALL working on attracting more women. It is not a case where the men put women off - in fact, the men I know are actively trying to encourage female participants. It has been my experience that is the individual woman's belief that they cannot compete. So whether it be physical strength or mental strength, women who have the attitude you are exhibiting is exactly WHY we cannot achieve true equality!

I am very sorry you feel the way you do. I really am - in fact, there is a pit in my stomach as I write this. What really scares me is that there are so many more who believe as you do.

[1stwahine]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Karen, just STFU!!



AUNTIE LYNN!

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Auntie, you're a bit late with the brevity here, dontcha think? It's all been said....

STFU...is that code for the word of the Lord, for today? LOL....

Huggz, Karen!~

Hahahaha, good one!! I was raised in the AOG church in South Texas by my Cherokee mom! You rockin....and now, you are STFU, too?? LOL huggz~

[1stwahine]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Auntie, you're a bit late with the brevity here, dontcha think? It's all been said....

STFU...is that code for the word of the Lord, for today? LOL....

Huggz, Karen!~

Hahahaha, good one!! I was raised in the AOG church in South Texas by my Cherokee mom! You rockin....and now, you are STFU, too?? LOL huggz~

heheheh...

At least you got a great sense of humor!

There's still HOPE foa you!

Now...don't put your man on a pedestal. You make your own. Live on your accomplishments and not of someone else...we are women who make our own legacies in Life. Unless...you don't have one.

Auntie Lynn

Btw: I'm ROCKIN!! COME ON DOWN!!

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

There's "hope for me?" You have no idea, gal!

A man on a pedestal? Nope, he's busy dusting and polishing the one I am on, and he made it with his own hands, then stained it with formby's, that hand rubbed coloring, LOL.


Seriously, nope, I ain't one of those poor females that will wither and die if she loses her man. I don't need a man to make me feel whole, just as I can let go of my, uh OUR two adult daughters, almost 20 and 23, as they leave the nest, and oh man, are they ready for this world! but I dunno if it is ready for them.

I am one CONFIDENT gal, and if something happens to current hubby/marriage, I do not wish to marry again. I don't feel lonely even when alone, sorry if this sounds like huge ego, but I even enjoy my own company, unlike many.

I LIKE boyz...a LOT, but I don't NEED 'em.

God bless ya, and huggz.....

BTW....that sign is so funny to me, and I have made a few of my own, especially one that was with the pentecostal sign, I know AOG is, but I used the one that has that in their name, the word pentecostal and it said...

"cat got your tongue?" LOLLL....

Hope the doesn't offend anyone. I thought it was a riot, with the way I was raised in it.

Gotta fly, work at my desk here is done and my weight machine awaits me.

[1stwahine]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Ahhhh...Come on Karen..let's talk. I'm not book smart like the rest. I'm Street smart. I got 51 years behind of me.

Lets talk.

Let's not talk about your MAN'S accomplishments. Let's talk about yours if you have any.

Auntie Lynn

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

You've called me on nothing but proven you don't discern people well, don't read between the lines as good as you think you do, and heck, you don't even remember all that you read.

I am entertaining the idea of shredding these whole six pages with your quotes, in sequential order, and take you up on your above challenge.

You don't need "examples" of what good feminism has already accomplished.

says she who has opted not to provide any.

You have called me on nothing.....because I have never had a female boss and say I don't want one. I will not have one, and that is why I haven't, and you insinuate I can't refuse what I don't want? Point not well taken. it is absurd you even brought this up.

I said plainly that you have choose to make sweeping generalizations over that which you have had no experience. In plain English, that is talking out of your @ss.

My example of using the catholic church, because of its vastness, comparing that to your wanting me to say if the feminist movement as a whole...is good or bad, was perfectly fitting in its context. Again, you're grasping at straws and wrong about this. JC did wonderful things that still aid us today, but "the movement" in His name.......that is another story, and you fail to SEE this? Nah! You grasp....and you are failing.

You repeatedly failed to provide a straight answer to the question:

So where are we?

Do we agree that feminism is a noble movement with great impact upon humanity, or is it the bastion of feminazis to be disregarded as a blight upon humanity?

Boiled down, is feminism a good thing or a bad thing?

When I suggested you reread me I wasn't being a smart-aleck about it, I meant it. I suggest you do, still.

neither was I. I am quite calm on this side of the computer screen. And I have read it many times. I am both a fine print reader and a big picture viewer. It is what I do for a living. Your suggestion was not only taken, but offered in return.

I have clearly said on this thread that there are good, even wonderful feminists, and that there are also nutsoid ones. You can't see it, sorry for you, but I said it and it remains so. Since it is so, there is no way you will force me to sum up the whole movement and label it good, or bad.

You have, several times, said that there are wonderful feminists. It is for this fact that I have continued to communicate with you. Although you have qualified several instances of providing the anti-feminist view with the acknowledgments of good work done on behalf of the movement, it is precisely because you have acknowledged them in the first place that gives me hope in reaching that open-space in your mind. It is a moral imperative I feel whenever I meet women/mothers/daughters/ those in power with the duty to share and advocate. Take that imperative and toss it; free will and all of that. I am cool with it, really truly.

Does your pride need the last word? If so....go for it. I've been thorough and I've been clear. Grasp if you need to, hell, diagram my sentences like one thumper did when the heart of my messages to her couldn't be gainsayed.

I may or may not even read your reply. It's been fun.

don't be passive-aggressive. We are adults here. Say what you mean and mean what you say. If I cannot reach you, that is fine and I accept it, because I know in my heart and mind that I made the effort in the first place. I am not trying to get you to burn your bra, but open your mind to the greatness that is the advancement we offer women in our society, which means parity for all--our men, our children and ourselves.

Peace.

[1stwahine]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Karen, from the odda thread... minus the wonderful!
http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=13266

Auntie Lynn

[Peshkwe]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

<snip>

i would also like to reinforce something others have said here (miulang? i forget who, sorry, but kudos to you): had women been allowed to serve in previous wars like vietname, i'm sure they would have done our country just as proud as the men already have. see, when it comes to service to our country, i don't think women are asking that certain standards be lowered to accommodate them. nope--i think they're asking for the opportunity to prove they're just as capable.

<snip>

That would have been me.

I said it 'cause I was in the military (Air Force) at the tail end hairs of Nam, my hub was in it. Our best man was a marine and a tunnel rat...those were usually the little guys 'cause the big guys had problems getting through the tunnels. A woman could do that.

I drove ballistics out to the flight line quite often in a 4 ton forklift, had weapons room clearance for the missile guidance units (and did the giger counter checks for the radioactive stuff), everyone had a part to play and if a female was allowed in combat at the time she may not have been able to haul a 180lb guy out but she sure as hell could cover the ones who could with a weapon defending em while they did it.

And I knew some young ladies who could haul around 50 gal. drums of fuel oil no problem....nice girls but scary strong!

[cynsaligia]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Thanks, Peshkwe.

something i forgot to say while rushing to write my last post:

karen, when you say that you "will not accept" a female boss or a female president, that's PREJUDICE.

additionally, in my view, it's proof of self-hatred. but the prejudice part? that's not an opinion. statements like the one you made about "never accepting" a female as boss or president, that's unequivocably prejudice on your part.

how moronic would it be if a filipino said, "i'm filipino, but i'd never accept a filipino governor"?

or

"i'm catholic but i'll never accept a catholic president.

you know, there's something rather telling about the way you brag about how mr. karen polishes your pedestal for you versus your statements about how it's rightfully not a man's world anymore versus your comments about "if" your marriage doesn't last.

you claim to have been speaking plainly here, and besides the fact that you have, without a doubt, dodged questions, i agree--you have been speaking plainly. but not in the way that you think, and definitely, some of us have been discerning certain things.

it's clear none of the comments made here will open your eyes in any way. i pity you for your lack of vision, your self-hatred, and your need to proclaim shrilly that you have your husband under your thumb, polishing your pedestal, and that there is no higher authority in your home besides you when you blithely his statements describing how women are inferior to men.

there's an opinion piece by patricia steiner that appears in either this week's or last week's issue of Pacific Business News that describes women just like you. look up "queen bee sundrome" and "crab syndrome," if you dare take an unflattering look in the mirror.