Things overrated by Americans

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

Thank you, Craig, for taking the time to address my question seriously and openly. I think your comment

until I had my own spiritual awakening

speaks volumes about you, and perhaps many of the rest of us; those of us who see spirituality as a matter of personal belief and behavior, rather than something we must impose upon others. While it's obvious that you and I are often on different sides of these issues, I have respect for your perspective.

[salmoned]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

The one belief you can take to the grave is that whatever the outcome it will be, you won't be the one deciding that unless your belief is the accurate one.

I'll take the odds that if there is a god then believing so will grant me a better place after I die.

If there is no god then who the heck cares.

But if there is a god and you don't care, Hell's a rotten place to live the rest of your immortal life.

So given the scenerios, I'll choose the better rather than the non-distinct or the worst cuz if there isn't a god, then it doesn't matter.

Three possible outcomes. Choose wisely.

Whether you're right or wrong, you still won't be deciding the issue.

There's quite a few more than 3 possible scenarios - remember your god may be the wrong god (false god); God may not care whether we believe in Him or not; To appreciate the benefits of God, you may have to become [one with] Him prior to your expiration, etc. So what it really boils down to is you must believe you've chosen the one right attitude or lifestyle in order to benefit from God's love. I can't possibly buy into that premise and anyone who does is nutty in my book. Not that I don't like nuts, I do. I just don't care to support or yield to their nutty ways. If there is a single God, I cannot possibly believe He holds Man in higher esteem than an elephant or ebola.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

I'll take the odds that if there is a god then believing so will grant me a better place after I die.

If there is no god then who the heck cares.

But if there is a god and you don't care, Hell's a rotten place to live the rest of your immortal life.

So given the scenerios, I'll choose the better rather than the non-distinct or the worst cuz if there isn't a god, then it doesn't matter.

Three possible outcomes. Choose wisely.

My idea of a "wise" choice is not letting fear rule my life.

Got one life to live. I'll be darned if I spend it going to a church I'm not sure about every week just as some sort of afterlife "insurance policy." Neither will I let my decisions be governed by superstitions like staying at home on Friday the 13th and putting a horseshoe over my door.

[scrivener]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

Creationists, as I understand it, believe in what the bible says literally. So......the Earth is only 10,000 yrs old? The sequence of evolution is determined through carbon dating - which is based on the time it takes for a carbon atom to decay. The evidence for evolution is through carbon dating. THAT is the difference between a science based theory and a faith based theory. EVIDENCE!

Ouch. Stop, please. Surely, as a scientist, you know better than to lump an entire population of people together because you have encountered a few who believe one thing. As I have made clear, I am a creationist, but how old the earth is I have not one clue about. As craig points out, that argument really doesn't matter if you believe in a creator, because why couldn't the creator create a world that's younger than the millions of years it supposedly is but dates much older? It's not something I believe in myself, because the argument is irrelevant to me: The origins of the earth and the hows and whys of its origin are only an interesting topic for discussion, not especially essential to my faith.

You seem to think that a faith-based theory is devoid of evidence, but I wonder what you think of the kinds of evidence often used in social sciences. Since none of us can get into the brains of others, all we have to go on sometimes is what people report as their experiences. Research on fear, for example, might depend on questionnaires, which are then turned into data. Sure, the data is mathematical, but it comes from the testimonies of the subjects' responses. Are those responses evidence? I don't have scientific proof of many of the things I believe, but I have evidence. Whether it is faulty or not remains to be seen, but please understand that I didn't just open up a fortune cookie and believe what it told me. My faith is the result of a lifetime (and I mean a LIFETIME) of examining the evidence of my own heart and the evidence of others' experiences.

Please, please, please: Don't take us all for brainless sheep. We see the evidence, and we recognize a discrepancy. There is no turning of blind eyes here, only an acknowledgment that none of us knows everything.

[scrivener]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

Got one life to live. I'll be darned if I spend it going to a church I'm not sure about every week just as some sort of afterlife "insurance policy." Neither will I let my decisions be governed by superstitions like staying at home on Friday the 13th and putting a horseshoe over my door.

I like this statement, because I think it illustrates nicely what the difference is between people like you and people like me (and I know that's a tricky way to word this, but be assured I mean it in the most devoid-of-connotation sense possible). See, it's because I'm not sure that I do go to church, or read threads like this, or learn about the beliefs of others. I believe, but I believe with all kinds of doubts and uncertainties. That's what makes it faith, you see? The truth is that I don't KNOW what the other drivers on the road are going to do, but I have a certain amount of faith that they are going to stop at the red light when I'm going through the intersection the other way. That uncertainty doesn't keep me off the roads, even when I have the occasional near-collision because others betray that faith.

All I have is my open heart, my able brain, the testimonies of people I respect and admire, and my own experience, which I realize can be faulty, but it's all I've got. None of us really knows whether love is what we think it is, or whether it is some instinct that has enabled our species to continue to pass its genes from one generation to the next, but all we have are our experiences, and if love isn't the multi-faceted, many-splendored, ineffable thing most of us think it is, we can't know it. Each of us has to respond to love in whatever way makes sense to us, whether it's some mechanism for survival or whether it's some emotional connection between people.

Similarly, I cannot know for sure that the things I've seen, felt, or experienced point to a loving God, but oh my goodness, for better or worse, I do believe it. It would be much, much easier for me not to believe it, and I have tried not to believe it at times, but it's no use.

One thing a scientist has in common with a thoughtful believer is this: The continued attempt to disprove the hypotheses. I keep testing, I keep looking for something to tell me that my experiences are not what I think they are, but nothing has ever done it.

[cyleet99]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

**takes a deep breath**

If there is a single God, I cannot possibly believe He holds Man in higher esteem than an elephant or ebola.

Have you read the account of the "Single God's" acts of creating? Humanity was the last of the creation, because man was created to be the keeper of the creation. We answer to our Creator. God made humans to have a relationship with their Creator, both in the physical world and eternally. Elephants and ebola viruses are part of the kept creation. They are not held responsible, as we are, for the earth, all in it, and for each other. And we do not do a good job, but the "single God" knows that. You cannot deny that you have a profoundly spiritual side, and you know it. Elephants and viruses do not. And I would venture to say that you hold yourself to a moral standard. If there is no God, why has humanity from the ancients to today continued to hold to any moral standard? It is because we know in our hearts the difference between right and wrong, and all over the world, throughout history and today, we run our societies using those standards. And the God of Abraham says to our faces that He is the only God, that there are no other Gods. Pretty brazen, wouldn't you say?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

I like this statement, because I think it illustrates nicely what the difference is between people like you and people like me (and I know that's a tricky way to word this, but be assured I mean it in the most devoid-of-connotation sense possible). See, it's because I'm not sure that I do go to church, or read threads like this, or learn about the beliefs of others. I believe, but I believe with all kinds of doubts and uncertainties. That's what makes it faith, you see?

Yes, faith is as you describe it.

But I want to make clear that my post isn't an anti-religious rant. What I was responding to was Craig's statement that a reason to adopt a religion is one based on fear. Specifically, using the fear of eternal damnation in hell. I know that such a fear has driven countless millions into adopting a religion from the beginning of time.

I'm not ragging on religion. Rather, I'm just saying that if I ever had to select a religion (and I am open minded in my belief of a god or higher being possibly existing), I would not select it based on a fear of unknown consequences. I mean, how many religions are out there? In the thousands? And how many of them teach that non-believers to their doctrine will suffer some kind of punishment, damnation, and torture? Once again, in the thousands.

Just as an example: Someone from a Catholic Church might tell me that I'm bound for hell unless I convert and get baptized in their church. But if I became a Catholic, wouldn't that anger the god Allah and set me on a course to go to the Islamic version of hell?

This is why if I ever selected a religion, it can't be based on fear. It can't be based on picking one over the other because that one has the scarier punishment. It has to be based on the whole package, if you know what I mean.

[acousticlady]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

Ouch. Stop, please. Surely, as a scientist, you know better than to lump an entire population of people together because you have encountered a few who believe one thing. As I have made clear, I am a creationist, but how old the earth is I have not one clue about. As craig points out, that argument really doesn't matter if you believe in a creator, because why couldn't the creator create a world that's younger than the millions of years it supposedly is but dates much older? It's not something I believe in myself, because the argument is irrelevant to me: The origins of the earth and the hows and whys of its origin are only an interesting topic for discussion, not especially essential to my faith.

You seem to think that a faith-based theory is devoid of evidence, but I wonder what you think of the kinds of evidence often used in social sciences. Since none of us can get into the brains of others, all we have to go on sometimes is what people report as their experiences. Research on fear, for example, might depend on questionnaires, which are then turned into data. Sure, the data is mathematical, but it comes from the testimonies of the subjects' responses. Are those responses evidence? I don't have scientific proof of many of the things I believe, but I have evidence. Whether it is faulty or not remains to be seen, but please understand that I didn't just open up a fortune cookie and believe what it told me. My faith is the result of a lifetime (and I mean a LIFETIME) of examining the evidence of my own heart and the evidence of others' experiences.

Please, please, please: Don't take us all for brainless sheep. We see the evidence, and we recognize a discrepancy. There is no turning of blind eyes here, only an acknowledgment that none of us knows everything.

I apologize if my comments made it sound that way. I was responding Craig's previous post(s) in which he talked about theory and then later on referred to God as unchanging and likened it to the unchanging Hydrogen atom.... and, I was on a roll . In no way do I believe any of us know everything - especially me. I, too, have issues with experimental methods in the social sciences. But, as you say, we cannot open up our brains and see what is being thought (how scary would that be!). So we need to rely on gaining knowledge through observation. We actually got into a big discussion about this in my acoustics class - much of what we (think we) know is based on subjective evidence. But, things like the development of MP3's have been dependent on some of this subjective knowledge. So, I would not discount their methods entirely either.

And.....while I may not be of the Christian faith, that certainly does not mean I am not a spiritual person. My faith may be more rooted in eastern philosophies, but that does not mean that I have no respect for you, Craig or anyone else who believes differently. I truly believe that if we all believed and thought the same way, we (as humans) would never have evolved past living in caves. I also believe that (friendly) discussions like this are essential in helping all of us understand one another just a little bit better .

[sinjin]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

...And the God of Abraham says to our faces that He is the only God, that there are no other Gods. Pretty brazen, wouldn't you say?

Actually He's never said this to my face. To claim the Bible is the actual word of God because it says so in the Bible is circular.

[sinjin]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

One thing a scientist has in common with a thoughtful believer is this: The continued attempt to disprove the hypotheses. I keep testing, I keep looking for something to tell me that my experiences are not what I think they are, but nothing has ever done it.

IMO you are a most uncommon "believer".

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

One thing a scientist has in common with a thoughtful believer

At the risk of tossing words back at you - please don't assume that these are different species. Being a scientist does not prevent someone from being a "thoughtful believer." There are many who are comfortable with being both.

You cannot deny that you have a profoundly spiritual side, and you know it. Elephants and viruses do not.

...aaaand you can "prove" this how? Elephants have been shown to grieve, to recall members of their herd who have passed on, and to show a range of other emotions that we humans think we recognize; who are we to say that they are not, in their own fashion and by their own measure, "spiritual"?

If we humans are supposed to be the top of the heap, the keepers of this realm, then we have totally messed it up to the detriment of all creatures. No amount of holy scribbling designed to justify anything we do or did will convince me that we are little more than a highly-evolved parasite. Definition: "A parasite lives in a close relationship with another organism, its host, and causes it harm. The parasite is dependent on its host for its life functions. The parasite has to be in its host to live, grow and multiply."

Sounds like humanity to me. If God created us in his image and put us in charge of all his creation, then he is clearly a flawed being himself and not the ultimate in perfection that he is made out to be.

[scrivener]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

At the risk of tossing words back at you - please don't assume that these are different species. Being a scientist does not prevent someone from being a "thoughtful believer."

I would never assume that. If I compare a baseball fan with a football fan, there is no implication that being one means you are not the other. But a baseball fan is one thing and a football fan is another thing. There are scientists who are believers, but what makes a person a scientist is a completely different list of criteria from what makes a person a believer. Yes?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

but what makes a person a scientist is a completely different list of criteria from what makes a person a believer. Yes?

No, can't agree with you there, because of your use of the word "completely." If such lists of criteria could ever exist, it is my belief that there would be a number of points found on both of them, starting with an insatiable curiosity regarding the unknown and unknowable. Such curiosity is often the driving force for someone to become a believer in a particular faith, as well as a factor in a scientist's career choice.

[salmoned]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

**takes a deep breath**



Have you read the account of the "Single God's" acts of creating? Humanity was the last of the creation, because man was created to be the keeper of the creation. We answer to our Creator. God made humans to have a relationship with their Creator, both in the physical world and eternally. Elephants and ebola viruses are part of the kept creation. They are not held responsible, as we are, for the earth, all in it, and for each other. And we do not do a good job, but the "single God" knows that. You cannot deny that you have a profoundly spiritual side, and you know it. Elephants and viruses do not. And I would venture to say that you hold yourself to a moral standard. If there is no God, why has humanity from the ancients to today continued to hold to any moral standard? It is because we know in our hearts the difference between right and wrong, and all over the world, throughout history and today, we run our societies using those standards. And the God of Abraham says to our faces that He is the only God, that there are no other Gods. Pretty brazen, wouldn't you say?

We are not the endpoint of creation - this is one of the biggest and dumbest lies of all. We are not the 'keepers of creation', we're simply another part of it (not the greatest and certainly not the latest). I do have a spiritual side and I do believe in a creator, but not an anthropomorphic one. Creation hasn't ended with humanity, although we may soon end our part in it. Elephants and viruses DO have a spirituality, as do peanuts, plankton and GMOs. If the god of Abraham were the only god, he wouldn't have to declare it - it would be self-evident. As well, he wouldn't have to make any rules about what we should believe concerning him. Ideas of right and wrong are just a recent (less than 20,000 years old) artifice of our dominant civilization - 'primitives' like me don't share the concept. I live in a continuum which stretches well beyond the single tick of the clock called history and I'd like to invite you to join the real world. [How 'over the top' can I go?]

[sinjin]

Re: Things overrated by Americans

This isn't turning out so badly after all.